The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Sirius]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1709699' date='Mar 5 2009, 14.54']Regardless of if Jon was a heir to the Iron Throne, he gave that birthright up when he took his vows. The only way he can make a claim to the Iron Throne is if the current King of Westeros absolves him of his Brother's Vows. As it stands, Daenerys simply has no reason to view him as a threat due to his parentage.[/quote]

So if Robb named Jon his heir and King in the North, he could absolve [b]himself[/b]? Because that would solve alot of problems :)

[Stalker]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1709701' date='Mar 5 2009, 20.56']So if Robb named Jon his heir and King in the North, he could absolve [b]himself[/b]? Because that would solve alot of problems :)[/quote]

No, if legalities are kept, he can't become king in the first plce, and thus not be in a postion to absolve himself.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Stalker' post='1709934' date='Mar 5 2009, 20.44']No, if legalities are kept, he can't become king in the first plce, and thus not be in a postion to absolve himself.[/quote]

True, I wish it hadn't been so long since I read the books. Do we know if Robb declared Jon as his heir? And if we do not know all of the details involved, is it not possible, that Robb had something else cooked up as well? Such as absolving Jon or giving him powers to lead both Night's watch and the North or handing over his lands to the Night's Watch?

As you may have noticed, I'm fond of the Jon for King theory :)

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1709699' date='Mar 5 2009, 14.54']Regardless of if Jon was a heir to the Iron Throne, he gave that birthright up when he took his vows. The only way he can make a claim to the Iron Throne is if the current King of Westeros absolves him of his Brother's Vows. As it stands, Daenerys simply has no reason to view him as a threat due to his parentage.[/quote]
Yes, I was wondering how long it would take for the subject of Jon's NW vows to come up again once his possibly being the heir to throne came up. It never takes long and rightly so :)

However, I personally think many people think far too linearly on this. I believe R+L=J and that Jon is legitimate, as well. I speculate that this will become known throughout the realm in such a way that it will be considered to be true. I also speculate that even though Jon is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne that his ass will never touch it. This will be by his own choice because he's in a unique position to know that the throne isn't really the important thing, winning the upcoming War for the Dawn is. Indeed, if the Others prevail then the Iron Throne won't matter one bit.

So, you see, Jon won't forsake his NW vows by becoming involved in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms. However, I think he will have to get at least some of the Seven Kingdoms involved in the affairs of the NW in order to have a prayer in the upcoming war with the Others. If R+L=J turns out to be true, then no one is in a better position than Jon to unite the kingdom forces, imo.

[Rhaegar_Targaryen]

[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1710051' date='Mar 6 2009, 15.50']Yes, I was wondering how long it would take for the subject of Jon's NW vows to come up again once his possibly being the heir to throne came up. It never takes long and rightly so :)

However, I personally think many people think far too linearly on this. I believe R+L=J and that Jon is legitimate, as well. I speculate that this will become known throughout the realm in such a way that it will be considered to be true. I also speculate that even though Jon is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne that his ass will never touch it. This will be by his own choice because he's in a unique position to know that the throne isn't really the important thing, winning the upcoming War for the Dawn is. Indeed, if the Others prevail then the Iron Throne won't matter one bit.

So, you see, Jon won't forsake his NW vows by becoming involved in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms. However, I think he will have to get at least some of the Seven Kingdoms involved in the affairs of the NW in order to have a prayer in the upcoming war with the Others. If R+L=J turns out to be true, then no one is in a better position than Jon to unite the kingdom forces, imo.[/quote]

Yeah i agree with you. It is not in Jon's character to accept the throne. But having said that, honour may require him to lead Westeros after the war of the dawn. Dany is prophesised to have no children. So that leaves Jon and the other "head of the dragon" to carry on the targaryen line. Jon having broken his vows with Ygritte will not be likely to do so again due to his status as lord commander and more life experience. So that will leave the third head tyrion/darkstar/aegon/etc or whatever combination of these to sire a new Targaryen dynasty. Despite this I think that the future of the seven kingdoms will be decided at a great council such as "the great council" or the one that Rhaegar intended to have. :grouphug:

[howland_reed]

I'm sure it's been mentioned at some point, but the best evidence (although circumstantial) for R + L = J is that Martin must have had a pre-conceived notion of who Jon's mother was before he undertook writing GoT. You can't really wing a critical plotpoint like that mid-series. It is my belief that he had outlined who Jon's mother was before he started penning his series.

With that in mind, if you assume that Martin had R + L = J in mind from the start, there's several subtle hints that support this theory from the gates. Hell, we learn of a mysterious promise in the opening chapters that still haunts Ned long after Lyanna's death.

Other subtle hints:

A strong focus on Rhaegar's backstory, particularly the tournament at Harrenhal marking the false spring. We learn of it both through Meera Reed's account to Bran, and Ser Barristan's description to Dany. This also happens to be the tournament where Rhaegar hands Lyanna the crown of blue roses.

Rhaegar's also continually put in the spotlight in Dany's arc, notably in the House of the Undying, where we hear the quote, "He is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire." In ASOS and AFFC, we hear of a similar prophecy from Melisandre, who believes that King Stannis is this prince (likely mistakenly since we're reminded that Stannis is uncomfortable with that recognition and that Maester Aemon notes that there is no heat emanating from his sword Lightbringer).

Point is, I can't see another reason why Martin continues to emphasize Rhaegar's place in history, and Rhaegar and Lyanna's meeting at the Harrenhal tournament, unless Jon is his son.

You could even say the same about the Reeds, these mysterious crannogmen. Seeing how Howland Reed is the only other person who knows of Jon's parentage, it is likely he'll play a part in the reveal. If I remember correctly, when Ned recalls his memory of Lyanna's promise, the following line was something along the lines of, "They found him later..." Considering this was at the Tower of Joy, "they" probably refers to Howland Reed and Wylla, Ashara's wetnurse and (my guess) Lyanna's midwife.

This would also explain why Wylla, in concert with Ned, then assumed the identity as Jon's mother, knowing his true parentage and the danger it presented.

I also have a theory that Ashara committed suicide not only because of the loss of her brother, but Ned may have withheld the truth from her and instead told her that he had the child with Wylla (dead brother + backstabbed by the man she loved = cliffjump). If Ashara was Jon's mother as some may lead us to believe, what kind of mother jumps off a cliff when she just brought a child into this world? It's also likely she's not really dead, but sailed away. In any case, we know so little about her, and most of it thirdhand.

I'd be very disappointed if Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Call me a sucker for the ole pauper to prince cliches that several fantasy stories replicate, including King Arthur. But Ashara or Wylla are simply too boring to be the answer to the series' biggest mystery.

[howland_reed]

[quote name='Rhaegar_Targaryen' post='1710128' date='Mar 6 2009, 01.32']Yeah i agree with you. It is not in Jon's character to accept the throne. But having said that, honour may require him to lead Westeros after the war of the dawn. Dany is prophesised to have no children. So that leaves Jon and the other "head of the dragon" to carry on the targaryen line. Jon having broken his vows with Ygritte will not be likely to do so again due to his status as lord commander and more life experience. So that will leave the third head tyrion/darkstar/aegon/etc or whatever combination of these to sire a new Targaryen dynasty. Despite this I think that the future of the seven kingdoms will be decided at a great council such as "the great council" or the one that Rhaegar intended to have. :grouphug:[/quote]

Actually, I disagree.

All evidence points to Jon's character [b]wanting[/b] that type of power. It's poignantly told to us when he's offered the title of Lord of Winterfell. Despite stating that it's not something he wished for (cause to do so would be to wish for his half-siblings deaths), it's nonetheless something he [b]wants[/b].

At the same time, he's a Stark and a man bound to his honor and his vows. If he is Rhaegar's son, it's probably his Targaryen blood that hungers for power. It's this internal struggle that'll make his choice much more interesting.

[Sirius]

:agree:

I love all of this, you might just be my new favourite person :)

[Rhaegar_Targaryen]

[quote name='howland_reed' post='1710134' date='Mar 6 2009, 17.39']Actually, I disagree.

All evidence points to Jon's character [b]wanting[/b] that type of power. It's poignantly told to us when he's offered the title of Lord of Winterfell. Despite stating that it's not something he wished for (cause to do so would be to wish for his half-siblings deaths), it's nonetheless something he [b]wants[/b].

At the same time, he's a Stark and a man bound to his honor and his vows. If he is Rhaegar's son, it's probably his Targaryen blood that hungers for power. It's this internal struggle that'll make his choice much more interesting.[/quote]

I did'nt say he would'nt want it. Just that Jon is far too much like Ned (despite what Jon thinks and some obvious exeptions) to simply accept the Iron Throne and give up on the watch.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Rhaegar_Targaryen' post='1710160' date='Mar 6 2009, 01.24']I did'nt say he would'nt want it. Just that Jon is far too much like Ned (despite what Jon thinks and some obvious exeptions) to simply accept the Iron Throne and give up on the watch.[/quote]

I have my worries that you may be right, but I have this niggling hope that he will learn from Ned, and not make the same mistake. I would prefer to see him win the Game of Thrones than to die.

[Rhaegar_Targaryen]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1710165' date='Mar 6 2009, 18.35']I have my worries that you may be right, but I have this niggling hope that he will learn from Ned, and not make the same mistake. I would prefer to see him win the Game of Thrones than to die.[/quote]

Yeah i would love to see Jon on the Iron throne. As long as he doesnt sleap with any Targaryen relatives... :unsure: their bloodline is allready somewhat...lacking.

[Szar]

If Robb named Jon as his heir, there's no doubt he first absolved him of his vows to the Night's Watch -- otherwise, it would be a pointless gesture.

[Rhaegar_Targaryen]

[quote name='Szar' post='1710194' date='Mar 6 2009, 19.40']If Robb named Jon as his heir, there's no doubt he first absolved him of his vows to the Night's Watch -- otherwise, it would be a pointless gesture.[/quote]

Its possible...but in the end its Jon's honour not some piece of paper.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1709946' date='Mar 6 2009, 03.52']Do we know if Robb declared Jon as his heir? And if we do not know all of the details involved, is it not possible, that Robb had something else cooked up as well? Such as absolving Jon or giving him powers to lead both Night's watch and the North or handing over his lands to the Night's Watch?[/quote]No. Yes. Northmen and Night's Watchmen alike would likely not accept the Night's Watch to become rattached to a realm. Absolving Jon, maybe, it would be necessary if he were to be heir in any case, but Jon King would be only King of those who accept him, and that does not amount to much: Robb was legitimate and all, and he only had half the North by the end, now you nominate a bastard in dubious circumstances? He'd have less than Robb, what with the burned out, turncloaks or families tied by hostages, and he would lose both the Night's Watch and Stannis' support.


[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1710051' date='Mar 6 2009, 05.50']However, I personally think many people think far too linearly on this. I believe R+L=J and that Jon is legitimate, as well. I speculate that this will become known throughout the realm in such a way that it will be considered to be true.[/quote]Such as? I cannot think of a single way that wouldn't break the very core of ASOIAF: the PoV-enforced stress on unreliability of information and independent thinking.

Please, give an example of how it would be done. No cop-out "but Martin is skilled and can do it even if no-one else can think of a way" please.

[Szar]

Winning the war against the Others on the back of a dragon and marrying Daenerys could probably do it. ;)

[Rinso]

And tell me how that [i]doesn't[/i] sound like an horrible end for the whole thing?

[CiaranAnnrach]

What do you think the "Battle for Dawn" will be about? It won't be for who sits in the Iron Throne - it will be the battle against the Others, with the entire kingdom of Westeros united against their ancient foe.

And, honestly, I kinda wonder if there will be a reason to have the Night's Watch after the end of the series. I mean, if they manage to truly eradicate the Others, then the Night's Watch could be disbanded, and their vows nullified.

By the way, is there any text references that hint at what exactly this "Dawn" is? I wonder if it's somehow related to the magic that's causing their seasons to last so long. (According to Martin, the lengthy seasons are magical in nature and not natural.) I wonder if that's tied to the Others.

Also, I've heard mention that someone thought it would be the "third head" of the dragon who would carry on the Targaryen bloodline - someone other than Jon and Daenerys. I know there is this whole "baby swap" theory that somehow Aegeon was snuck out of the castle, but is there really any evidence to support it, or is that just pure speculation?

[howland_reed]

[quote]I did'nt say he would'nt want it. Just that Jon is far too much like Ned (despite what Jon thinks and some obvious exeptions) to simply accept the Iron Throne and give up on the watch.[/quote]

My point was that whatever his decision may be, he'd struggle with it. While I agree that Jon would remain with the Black if the choice ever presented itself, circumstances could always change, such as the dissolution of the Night's Watch, the fall of the Wall, or a romance with Dany (which I'm 100% against even if it seems like Martin is laying the brickwork for it)

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1710525' date='Mar 6 2009, 10.37']Also, I've heard mention that someone thought it would be the "third head" of the dragon who would carry on the Targaryen bloodline - someone other than Jon and Daenerys. I know there is this whole "baby swap" theory that somehow Aegeon was snuck out of the castle, but is there really any evidence to support it, or is that just pure speculation?[/quote]

This is pretty much what I'm crossing my fingers for. Dany can't bear children (if the witch's curse isn't a ruse), and Jon is sworn to the Night's Watch. Plus they're related and despite Targaryen history, incest is disturbing. My hopes are for the mysterious "third head" of the dragon, whomever that may be, to be the one to continue the Targaryen line of kings, paired with whoever the future Queen may be (my guess is Sansa).

edit - Of course, the third head could always be female.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Szar' post='1710331' date='Mar 6 2009, 13.28']Winning the war against the Others on the back of a dragon and marrying Daenerys could probably do it. ;)[/quote]Ah, but that's evading the point. With that scenario (or others in the same vein), Jon can be proclaimed Grand Mogol, god of all things and everyone would believe it, because he has the power to make them believe, or make them [b]feign[/b] to believe, more to the point.

What I addressed would be a scenario where he would become known and truly recognized as trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna before he had the power to enforce it. Because that usually the starting point of the "Jon King" or similar theories: first he gets recognized by the whole world, then [i]because he is recognized[/i] he gets the girl and the throne (princesses cannot do anything without a hidden heir to save their butt, it is known)


[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1710525' date='Mar 6 2009, 16.37']And, honestly, I kinda wonder if there will be a reason to have the Night's Watch after the end of the series. I mean, if they manage to truly eradicate the Others, then the Night's Watch could be disbanded, and their vows nullified.[/quote]How do they know they actually did eradicate the Others forever, that it's different from 8000 years before? Gandalf is going to tell them and [i]they will believe it[/i]? They all get a divine message? All ice on earth melts and the whole North is colonized?

What do they do with their supernumerary sons and their prisoners?

[quote]Also, I've heard mention that someone thought it would be the "third head" of the dragon who would carry on the Targaryen bloodline [...] is there really any evidence to support it, or is that just pure speculation?[/quote]Pure speculation, based on the fact that Dany is Barren and that Jon is either not a Targaryen/not part of the triumvirate/sterile/staying in the NW and keeping his vows. Relies on epileptic trees.

[Shewoman]

Have you read Macbeth? It sounds like there's a prophecy that proclaims victory for Macbeth but (spoilers for Macbeth) he dies. Maggie maz Dur's (I can never get her name right) response to Dany sounds an awful lot like that sort of prophecy to me.