The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[SFDanny]

Welcome to the board, dragomort, and to the never ending thread.

[the silent speaker]

1. Rhaegar appear to have thought that [i]Aegon's[/i] was the song of ice and fire, not his posited third child's.
2. Ned and Catelyn arguably had a happy ever after, and you could make a case for Tywin and Joanna too. They're all dead, but their romances were not the cause of any of their deaths (unless you count Joanna dying in childbirth).

[dragomort]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1727197' date='Mar 20 2009, 13.25']Welcome to the board, dragomort, and to the never ending thread.[/quote]
I'm only worried about the way everything gets taken so personally as I tend to feed off of personal attacks like that :P Just recommended the book to another friend as it's the best series I can think of bar none and realized I had forgotten a lot of it so I'll be trying to read along and thought I should brush up on things myself first and found this place where everyone seems to at least love the books in their own ways and actively are still discussing it. Can't ask for much more! Thanks for the welcome!

[dragomort]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1727236' date='Mar 20 2009, 13.43']1. Rhaegar appear to have thought that [i]Aegon's[/i] was the song of ice and fire, not his posited third child's.
2. Ned and Catelyn arguably had a happy ever after, and you could make a case for Tywin and Joanna too. They're all dead, but their romances were not the cause of any of their deaths (unless you count Joanna dying in childbirth).[/quote]
Hmmm, can't recall Tywin-Joanna all that much, but her death embittered the rest of Tywin's days to an extent as he was left with his mockery of a son (his view in my own words, not vice-versa at all) that took her away. So I guess I'm not sure if that fits the mold or not off of memory or if theirs was even a true love story at all.

And there was nothing romantic per se about Catelyn-Ned at all, imo, unless you're into marrying your brother's fiance when you have another to whom you are interested by all accounts. They made it work, but it's not a romantic set at all in spite of the resulting several years of happiness. The only 'romances' are tragic that I can think of and generally end in horrible affairs...then again, that seems to be happening to everyone in general as war after war racks the nation, but love in general has seemed a target of particular sorrowful ends as it is wont to do in any story.

[dragomort]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1727236' date='Mar 20 2009, 13.43']1. Rhaegar appear to have thought that [i]Aegon's[/i] was the song of ice and fire, not his posited third child's.[/quote]
bah, missed part 1.

There's nothing to say what happened after that point though. I don't doubt he believed it when he said it, but learning of a beauty from the 'land of Ice' whom he would (provided he did) fall for would likely put a bit of a different take in his view of the prophesy itself.

It's not like I'm saying it's a 100% lock to it as there are questions needing resolution no matter how it falls, but I think there's enough pointing to it to take it as a likely possibility or a very nice red herring that I don't mind falling for :P

[howland_reed]

I don't have a copy of ACOK with me, but doesn't Rhaeger break the 4th wall and directly look at Dany after that vision and make some remark along the lines of, "There is another, the dragon has three heads," as if he were speaking to her?

[Errant Bard]

He's looking at the camera.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]but learning of a beauty from the 'land of Ice' whom he would (provided he did) fall for would likely put a bit of a different take in his view of the prophesy itself.[/quote]
Aegon was born [i]after[/i] Harrenhal. He knew of her already. (It would be hard to imagine he didn't know of her before anyway, as Rickard Stark's daughter would be a blue-chip marriage prospect for most, but certainly he knew of her by the time Aegon was born.)
[quote]And there was nothing romantic per se about Catelyn-Ned at all, imo,[/quote]
Not the setup, no, but they had a romantic enough life together.

[Sirius]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1727236' date='Mar 20 2009, 12.43']2. Ned and Catelyn arguably had a happy [b]ever after[/b], and you could make a case for Tywin and Joanna too. They're all dead, but their romances were not the cause of any of their deaths (unless you count Joanna dying in childbirth).[/quote]

They had a happily for a while, at best. And at the very start of AGoT we see them being somewhat "short" with one another. Now plenty of couples argue, but they learned to love each other, they aren't exactly soulmates. Catelyn is forever pointing out the aspects of Ned that she doesn't understand but has come to accept, and at one point Ned exclaims how basically his life is not how he wanted it, and how he wished Brandon had lived it for him.

[dragomort]

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1727496' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.04']Aegon was born [i]after[/i] Harrenhal. He knew of her already. (It would be hard to imagine he didn't know of her before anyway, as Rickard Stark's daughter would be a blue-chip marriage prospect for most, but certainly he knew of her by the time Aegon was born.)[/quote]

That is a fair point if it's to be as romantic as I was wanting it to be :( -although it still could qualify that way in the end

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1727496' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.04']Not the setup, no, but they had a romantic enough life together.[/quote]
Oh, no doubt that they ended up happy enough, but it fails as a romantic saga in some important ways. Namely those that King of the Wolf Pack is pointing out, but more importantly to those reading is in the way it didn't come together as that sort of 'sweeping' love is what I think we haven't seen any successful examples of and what we do see of it leads to uber-tragedy. (see Robb & Tyrion for some prominent examples off the top of my head in 'modern' times of true love stories and possibly Rhaegar if this theory pans out, but he would've at least gotten farther with it)

*Also I'd like to add to the tragic love side Sandor and Sansa with the beauty and the beast angle as well as true 'fire and ice' parallel. Not on topic per se, but it came to my head that it falls under that definition more than any save the possibility of R+L and should be noted

[dancer]

[size=1]Probably been said before, but how much input do you guys think Howland Reed will have in discovering whether l+R=J?[/size]

[Sirius]

[quote name='dragomort' post='1727598' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.34']*Also I'd like to add to the tragic love side Sandor and Sansa with the beauty and the beast angle as well as true 'fire and ice' parallel. Not on topic per se, but it came to my head that it falls under that definition more than any save the possibility of R+L and should be noted[/quote]

Ya that's really interesting actually, never occured to me before... I haven't come across this theory yet, is it new?

[Szar]

Well, it could still work -- Aegon and Rhaenys as the aspects of Fire, and the child with Lyanna as the aspect of Ice. I am also convinced that Rhaegar expected a daughter from Lyanna, not a son. Considering the acceptance of Targaryen incest and polygamy, Rhaegar probably expected Aegon to marry Rhaenys as well as Lyanna's daughter (who would be named Visenya). That gives him a dragon with three heads, aspects of Ice and Fire, all neatly tied together.

Of course, Lyanna's child was a son, and Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered, so it's all a wash.

[dragomort]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1727837' date='Mar 20 2009, 20.27']Ya that's really interesting actually, never occured to me before... I haven't come across this theory yet, is it new?[/quote]
I haven't read it anywhere if that's what you're asking, but I don't doubt that someone's thought it up somewhere before I came along. Just popped into my head while posting and remembering my last run through the series a while back and looking forward to my upcoming one.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='dragomort' post='1727598' date='Mar 20 2009, 23.34']*Also I'd like to add to the tragic love side Sandor and Sansa with the beauty and the beast angle as well as true 'fire and ice' parallel. Not on topic per se, but it came to my head that it falls under that definition more than any save the possibility of R+L and should be noted[/quote]But sandor isn't associated with Fire anymore than Winterfell is, and both have been burned.

[dragomort]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1728371' date='Mar 21 2009, 02.08']But sandor isn't associated with Fire anymore than Winterfell is, and both have been burned.[/quote]
Depends how you're looking at it, I suppose. I'm not sure where that line of thinking will take me honestly, but I think it is a significant tie worth more inspection to say the least. A comparison and contrast between the two does have a thematic beauty to it is all I'm trying to point out. Those two may be the 'outcasts' from both sides of that coin however with Sansa's desire to stay away from the 'ice' (not leaving when Ned arranged passage and indeed tipping Cersei off to avoid going back to her land of ice, for those who forget) and Sandor's obvious aversion to 'fire', Sandor's introduction into the life of a noble was his father's hounds saving a Lannister while Sansa's consisted of her father killing her own wolf for 'attacking' a Lannister, before we even get to personality traits.

[Sirius]

[quote name='dragomort' post='1728377' date='Mar 21 2009, 01.28']Depends how you're looking at it, I suppose. I'm not sure where that line of thinking will take me honestly, but I think it is a significant tie worth more inspection to say the least. A comparison and contrast between the two does have a thematic beauty to it is all I'm trying to point out. Those two may be the 'outcasts' from both sides of that coin however with Sansa's desire to stay away from the 'ice' (not leaving when Ned arranged passage and indeed tipping Cersei off to avoid going back to her land of ice, for those who forget) and Sandor's obvious aversion to 'fire', Sandor's introduction into the life of a noble was his father's hounds saving a Lannister while Sansa's consisted of her father killing her own wolf for 'attacking' a Lannister, before we even get to personality traits.[/quote]

Small quibble, I believe it was his grandfather, who was kennelmaster for the Lannisters at the time :) , besides that :thumbsup:

[dragomort]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1728383' date='Mar 21 2009, 02.59']Small quibble, I believe it was his grandfather, who was kennelmaster for the Lannisters at the time :) , besides that :thumbsup:[/quote]
:eek: Good catch!

While on the symbolism discussion though, I just restarted the series and in chapter one having everyone come across a wolf that dies just before or during child birth only to have its children saved by the sons of House Stark is something of a huge symbol pointing to a not-so-hidden significance in my opinion. There are some other things at play and it's clouded over from a child's view of the situation but still, the symbolism of the event that leads the series is significant and layered beautifully for something like this theory to be the causation, imo.

[dragomort]

I'll try to catch as many inferences to it as possible and put them in here since I'm reading it anyhow:

GoT, paperback p30 Daenerys..."Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident [b]and dying for the woman he loved[/b]."

...wonderful choice of phrasing there :)

p44 Eddard has Robert's view " 'I vowed to kill Rhaegar [b]for what he did to her.[/b]'
'You did.' Ned reminded him.
'Only once.' Robert said bitterly "

....I love the way he writes, but damn do I hate trying to definitively prove something :P Anyway, it's relevant to the discussion and I'm still in the mood to transcribe it

[Shewoman]

Re: Ned's and Catelyn's relationship: her last thought is of him (Something along the lines of "Don't cut my hair! Ned loves my hair!"

I don't cast them as the most romantic couple this side of Romeo and Juliet. which is okay (there's quite a bit of romance in ASOIAF), but I think it's clear that they love each other even if that's not the reason they got married. He's glad to see her when she comes to KL, although he's a bit unclear as to why she's in a brothel and she grieves for him.