The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[The white rabbit]

There's also the idea some floated around that Ashara Dayne was actually murdered.

By whom and why?

[Shewoman]

I haven't heard this suggestion before. Tell!

[Lady Blackfish]

There's not much more to it, as far as I remember, just that maybe she died but her body was never found because somebody took care to make sure it wouldn't be. You can make up some outlandish things, maybe her family did it because she betrayed them somehow :shrug: Just grasping at straws, but I went a head and mentioned it since everything else gets talked about 80 million times on the board anyway.

[Ealasaid]

I am amazed this topic is still being thrashed.

I'd like Rhaeger's and Lyanna's deaths to mean something. And I want the promise Ned made to be of consequence.

It does bother me a bit that Jon was burned when he set fire to the wight. But not all Targs were impervious to fire. So I cling to R+L=J.

Maybe GRRM will tell us someday.

[wakiki]

It does bother me a bit that Jon was burned when he set fire to the wight. But not all Targs were impervious to fire. So I cling to R+L=J.

Have there been any other Targs that were impervious to fire besides Dany? I was under the impression that she was unique in that way.

[Aplomb]

Have there been any other Targs that were impervious to fire besides Dany? I was under the impression that she was unique in that way.

I think only the craziest Targs actually believed they were impervious to fire, and except for Dany it got the ones who tested it killed. And it's unclear whether her foray into the flames was based simply on her Targness or something else, such as lingering Mirri magic, dragon egg magic, her role in prophesy, or who knows what.

[Errant Bard]

GRRM said Dany not getting burned was a one time event. She is not impervious to fire, nor are Targaryens in general.

As for Ashara getting murdered, I know I did make the suggestion once, where she was killed by Ned. It worked along a line where Ned would go to Starfall to hide Jon, but Ashara, being both pro-Targaryen and mad that Ned would dump her and saddle her with a baby (or whatever, pregnant and threatening scandal on Ned's and Catelyn's honour) would make a huge fuss and refuse to see Ned's point of view. Ned would then protect his promise to Lyanna and social convention by accidently pushing her off the tower. And then refuse to even hear her name spoken out of guilt, and scare his own wife when she got to close to the same situation.

It's too easy, there isn't nearly enough information to make some good out-there theory

[Maia]

GRRM said Dany not getting burned was a one time event.

OTOH, Targs are more heat-resistent than the norm. Dunk notes that in the "Sworn Sword" and Dany also likes to bathe in a very hot water. They aren't imprevious to fire, though.

[Errant Bard]

OTOH, Targs are more heat-resistent than the norm. Dunk notes that in the "Sworn Sword" and Dany also likes to bathe in a very hot water.

Isn't it just rumours for Dunk? I guess I can accept a heat-resistant physiology for people without much melanin, in wonkygenetics-land, though I'm not sure it is really relevant as in the end, Summer islanders and Targaryen burn like everyone else when subjected to too intense a temperature, or doused in phosphor.

On the other hand, Dany comes out of her bath with the skin as red as anyone else's would be. Surely we don't equate "liking" with "being resistant to", it's not because you like sweets that you are resistant to weight gain. And that liking had to do with her upbringing, she explicitely reminisces about Vyserys telling her Targaryens liked it hot. Nobody's perfect, so she got influenced. If Jon was himself a Targaryen, it's clear, first, that Stark genetical material is dominant, considering his appearance, so it wouldn't be surprising that other Targaryen innate feats like the 30% heat resistance would be gone, and then he never had a moron brainwashing him about how heat and fire were his identity, so the cultural element is gone too.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Isn't it just rumours for Dunk? I guess I can accept a heat-resistant physiology for people without much melanin, in wonkygenetics-land, though I'm not sure it is really relevant as in the end, Summer islanders and Targaryen burn like everyone else when subjected to too intense a temperature, or doused in phosphor.

On the other hand, there was that Valyrian dragon horn of Euron's that charred Cragorn's lungs. Either the valyrians of old just had their hapless slaves blow the horns whenever they needed to (and maybe the summoned dragon could help clean up by eating the corpse when it showed up) or there's something to the blood of the dragon after all. Now GRRM has indicated that Dany's survival was a miraculous one time event, as noted, but the fire from that dragon horn hardly seemed to be as severe as the raging pyre that Dany lit for Drogo. In which case the degree was what made Dany's fire-proofness on that occasion unique (it's not even clear if she gets it all the time).

I have to suspect that the blood of fire thing has some genuine basis to it, even if it's unreliable in it's effectiveness and sometimes doesn't appear at all. Presumably it's a magical phenomenon, so the overall strength of magic in the world would affect it...and old Valyria was probably a real magical hot spot.

[Errant Bard]

Maybe, or maybe Euron's horn is not a dragon controlling device but an assassination gizmo, or it only triggers the burning when the wrong person sounds it, or when he doesn't do the correct hand gestures or something. I prefer my proto-Targaryens not impervious to magic but able to create items with embedded security devices.

[Guest Other-in-law]

or it only triggers the burning when the wrong person sounds it, or when he doesn't do the correct hand gestures or something. I prefer my proto-Targaryens not impervious to magic but able to create items with embedded security devices.

Well, that works just as well for me, and could even be a variation on the blood ability, though a synthetic one rather than natural. The magical security device could be recognising the valyrian blood, and then not trigger the burning. Which requires the possibility of distinguishing between the bloods (or something else) of different peoples, unless it really is mere hand waving to disarm it.

But even so, there have been some slight hints of some targaryens having an affinity for heat; Dany not minding baths in nearly scalding water, Egg never sweating in the hottest summer days.

[wakiki]

GRRM said Dany not getting burned was a one time event. She is not impervious to fire, nor are Targaryens in general.

That's interesting. Dany is definitely described as taking baths in scalding water, though. On my first read I assumed he was using a figure of speech, and on my second+ I figured it was foreshadowing.

I think that in these cases -- including Egg not sweating, the dragon horn charring the man's lungs -- it's just magic working however GRRM wants it to at the time. I doubt that analyzing it will ever be possible since he probably makes up the rules as each situation occurs.

[Ealasaid]

On the other hand, there was that Valyrian dragon horn of Euron's that charred Cragorn's lungs.

I have to suspect that the blood of fire thing has some genuine basis to it, even if it's unreliable in it's effectiveness and sometimes doesn't appear at all. Presumably it's a magical phenomenon, so the overall strength of magic in the world would affect it...and old Valyria was probably a real magical hot spot.

(blush)

I guess it's obvious I am in the midst of AGoT reread. I quite forgot about the Horn.

I have to say that GRRM is pretty consistent about his magic. He noted that JRRT used it sparingly, and he does too. So I believe the Horn that Crow's Eye hauled back is important. Even if it's' never used. it could be a terrible threat to Dany and control of her dragons.

I'm just going to ease out on a limb and say that Dany, as Mother of Dragons. is unique.

In the reread, I noted Jon was musing about his mother. He was thinking rather unfalttering things about her background. So I therefore ease out a more on the limb and state that it points to Jon's mother as a Somebody.

As to Ashara Dane. Everything I have read and assimilated leads me to believe she killed herself out of grief. I think Ned was her true love, as she was his. I like the idea that Ned inspired passion in someone, since he had to marry Catelyn. Arthur Dayne (and the long lost wonderful Dream Team Kingsguard) seemed to be of sterner stuff than what we have now. I think Ashara would have attracted to Ned for that reason. Ned was honorable. Even to the point of taking Dawn to his beloved, and not leaving the task up to someone else. Perhaps she mourned the end of an era as well.

[Tyrellius]

Maybe, or maybe Euron's horn is not a dragon controlling device but an assassination gizmo, or it only triggers the burning when the wrong person sounds it, or when he doesn't do the correct hand gestures or something. I prefer my proto-Targaryens not impervious to magic but able to create items with embedded security devices.

What if the 2 horns we know about (Dragon controlling and Destroying the wall) are actually confused. A sacrifice being needed for the wall to be brought down sounds more reasonable than burning the hell outta your lungs to control a dragon for a lil bit.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

Here's a question that I'm sure has been covered ad nauseum.

Are we sure that Lyanna did not run off somewhat willfully with Rhaegar, Robert was just in love with her in a way that was not consummated entirely, and that the victors rewrote history as Rhaegar stealing Lyanna and raping her? I forget what is explicitly said sometimes.

[Shewoman]

There's a lot we don't know about Lyanna's disappearance. Was she kidnapped? Did she decide to vanish? Where did she go when she did? Was she at the Tower of Joy the whole time? I think the general opinion in Westeros was that she ran off with Rhaegar--after all, a lot of the nobility saw him give her the Crown of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal when his own wife was there.

I think that Robert came up with the theory that Rhaegar raped her in order to keep himself from admitting that she just didn't want to marry Robert. I hope at some point we'll know what happened with the "disappearance."

[Nine of Spades]

There's a lot we don't know about Lyanna's disappearance. Was she kidnapped? Did she decide to vanish? Where did she go when she did? Was she at the Tower of Joy the whole time? I think the general opinion in Westeros was that she ran off with Rhaegar--after all, a lot of the nobility saw him give her the Crown of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal when his own wife was there.

I think that Robert came up with the theory that Rhaegar raped her in order to keep himself from admitting that she just didn't want to marry Robert. I hope at some point we'll know what happened with the "disappearance."

There are 2 things that bother me about the R+L=J theory, and they are both thematic.

First, its pretty cliche fantasy. Guy who doesnt know who his parents are becomes King. Maybe Martin is doing it because he wanted to do it his way, but it seems better in my eyes to strongly hint at it and to pull it away. And if we have a return of the long lost king scenario, why bother with Dany?

Second, Jon in the books seems so very much a Stark. Whatever else mother/father gave him, it didn't seem to matter much. He is of the first men. He is of the north. Where as Dany manifests Dragon as the mother of Dragons (fire), Jon manifests the North and the Dire Wolf (Ghost, warging, even ghosts face is compared to a weirwood). Furthermore, its the Targaryens who seem to be in direct conflict with the first men in terms of influence and beliefs, its a bit oil and water. Youd think a hybrid between the two families would show some aspects of both, but whatever Targ influence there would be inperceptable.

That said, the evidence strongly points to the R+L=J theory. And I dont know of another way to resolve it that would counterbalance this and change the direction so that it didnt seem like an enormous tease.

[Shewoman]

Ninie of Spades, R+L=J posits that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. That doesn't automatically mean that Jon is destined for greatness. Rhaegar, who was surely legitimate, never became king. Martin has said that we'll learn who Jon's parents are, but I don't know that Jon or any of the other characters will.

Plus, I trust Martin. There's a lot of things he can do to keep this information from being the cliche you fear. Jon may not learn who his parents were because the people who know don't want the Targaryen line to continue and so never tell him. Or he may learn the truth and decide that a life spent playing the game of thrones isn't for him and settle on a small farm somewhere in incestuous happiness with Arya. Or maybe he learns the truth but backs off so that Dany can rule Westeros. Or maybe, as he ascends the throne, someone kills him.

Or maybe the N+A=J crowd is right. I don't think so, but it could happen. If that's the case, then R+L is a giant distraction keeping us from seeing the truth (although I find Ned's behavior towards and about Jon hard to explain if this is true).

We'll find out if we live long enough--

[quigon87]

re-listening to the series from scratch right now, about to finish A Game Of Thrones...

Against - Jon burns his hand and the pain is unbearable... well, Targaryians, like Dany at the end of book 1, have no problem with fire, they love and draw power in some3 way from it, its a part of them...