The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Rinso]

Yeah, but the point is that if the relevance between the ages of Dany and Jon was so important, GRRM would have corrected the mistake. And at least in the version of the script that has leaked on the internet, this was not the case.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679044' date='Feb 8 2009, 14.36']Except that in the script Jon is older than Dany by 2 years, while according to R+L=J they have to be of more similar age.[/quote]

You are mistaken. R+L=J doesn't in anyway depend on Jon and Daenerys being closer in age. The fact GRRM has said they are "eight or nine months" apart helps us sort out some false theories, but it is not necessary to make R+L=J to work. It depends on Rhaegar and Lyanna being together nine months before Jon is born. It depends on Lyanna giving birth to a child before she dies. It depends on Ned promising to his dying sister that he would keep secret about who Jon's parents are, and to raise and protect him as his own. It really doesn't depend on much else.

Now, if you told me that a GRRM approved script has Jon being born nine months after Lyanna dies, then you might have a point. As it is, you don't.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679141' date='Feb 8 2009, 16.37']Yeah, but the point is that if the relevance between the ages of Dany and Jon was so important, GRRM would have corrected the mistake. And at least in the version of the script that has leaked on the internet, this was not the case.[/quote]

That doesn't really matter. That can be justified by reworking a few details in the story. It is actually very likely that the war in the pilot lasted longer than the one from the books as Jon and Robb are still listed as being the same age(17). Unless they changed the details of Cat and Ned marriage which I find unlikely.

This is why trying to prove or disprove something based on a pilot is futile. The worlds don't have to match exactly and many things might be altered or rearranged. I just got finished reading the pilot a few minutes ago and it was decent reworking of the original.

[Rinso]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1679168' date='Feb 8 2009, 18.00']You are mistaken. R+L=J doesn't in anyway depend on Jon and Daenerys being closer in age. The fact GRRM has said they are "eight or nine months" apart helps us sort out some false theories, but it is not necessary to make R+L=J to work. It depends on Rhaegar and Lyanna being together nine months before Jon is born. It depends on Lyanna giving birth to a child before she dies. It depends on Ned promising to his dying sister that he would keep secret about who Jon's parents are, and to raise and protect him as his own. It really doesn't depend on much else.

Now, if you told me that a GRRM approved script has Jon being born nine months after Lyanna dies, then you might have a point. As it is, you don't.[/quote]
Actually, no. According to R+L=J, Jon must have been born near the end of the war, close to the time when Ned and co. stormed the Tower of Joy. Otherwise Lyanna couldn't have died of childbirth at his hands. If he was born months before Ned came, she would have either died, or got better. If Jon is older than Dany by 2 years, that would mean that somehow the war lasted for 2 years after the death of Aerys, which would be quite a strange mistake to pass unnoticed by GRRM.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679211' date='Feb 8 2009, 17.36']Actually, no. According to R+L=J, Jon must have been born near the end of the war, close to the time when Ned and co. stormed the Tower of Joy. Otherwise Lyanna couldn't have died of childbirth at his hands. If he was born months before Ned came, she would have either died, or got better. If Jon is older than Dany by 2 years, that would mean that somehow the war lasted for 2 years after the death of Aerys, which would be quite a strange mistake to pass unnoticed by GRRM.[/quote]
All that means is that Lyanna doesn't die in childbirth in the script version, not that R+L=J is untrue.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679211' date='Feb 8 2009, 17.36']Actually, no. According to R+L=J, Jon must have been born near the end of the war, close to the time when Ned and co. stormed the Tower of Joy. Otherwise Lyanna couldn't have died of childbirth at his hands. If he was born months before Ned came, she would have either died, or got better. If Jon is older than Dany by 2 years, that would mean that somehow the war lasted for 2 years after the death of Aerys, which would be quite a strange mistake to pass unnoticed by GRRM.[/quote]

Sometimes people's inability to understand things boggles me. The story in the pilot can be vastly different than the original. It's a god damn adaptation they are known to take liberties. In the book R+L=J makes sense from a time perspective and that it doesn't from the pilot is inconsequential. The details of the war in the pilot can be very different. Let take for example that in the pilot world that Aery's didn't open the gate but instead had a long siege until finally Jaime killed him while at the same time Ned was heading to the ToJ. Or even that Lyanna did live though childbirth but died some other way that has yet to be revealed. Or a million other details that haven't been revealed that might be used in the pilot to example this difference between the source material and the pilot. The pilots and the original don't even have to end the same or have events being similar. For all we know Ned might still live (doubtful) throughout the series.

Basically your analogy is A and B are true in one story so C is possible, but in another story A and B are not true but D is true. So you're using D to try to disprove C even though D has no bearing on the validity of C. Do you see how freaking stupid that is?

[Rinso]

[quote name='Cersei's #1 Fan' post='1679262' date='Feb 8 2009, 18.10']Sometimes people's inability to understand things boggles me. The story in the pilot can be vastly different than the original. It's a god damn adaptation they are known to take liberties. In the book R+L=J makes sense from a time perspective and that it doesn't from the pilot is inconsequential. The details of the war in the pilot can be very different. Let take for example that in the pilot world that Aery's didn't open the gate but instead had a long siege until finally Jaime killed him while at the same time Ned was heading to the ToJ. Or even that Lyanna did live though childbirth but died some other way that has yet to be revealed. Or a million other details that haven't been revealed that might be used in the pilot to example this difference between the source material and the pilot. The pilots and the original don't even have to end the same or have events being similar.[/quote]
I assume that if GRRM has the R+L=J theory in mind, he'd want it to make sense in the TV series, becaise it will be an important event later-on. Bur you are willing to think that there would be big changes to the source material, without considering the fact that the theory might just not be true at the first place and thus GRRM would just not care.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679289' date='Feb 8 2009, 18.26']I assume that if GRRM has the R+L=J theory in mind, he'd want it to make sense in the TV series, becaise it will be an important event later-on. Bur you are willing to think that there would be big changes to the source material, without considering the fact that the theory might just not be true at the first place and thus GRRM would just not care.[/quote]

Who says it doesn't make sense? They probably just wanted to make the boy's a bit older and leave Dany the same age. They didn't reveal anything yet of the events regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna in the pilot. They can easily have it all make sense or may even never get specific on dates on when events happened. The book gives us a basic timeline but who's to say the series will ever get that in-depth? The fact that Jon and Robb are still same age makes it likely that they were both born during the war and at similar times. Though we can't say this as a fact since nothing yet has been revealed about the war's timeline or major events. They could be fairly similar or drastically different and still be made to make sense in the pilot series world, which is completely separate from the books. Your inability to realize this fact is the major flaw in your arguments.

[Rinso]

[quote name='Cersei's #1 Fan' post='1679329' date='Feb 8 2009, 20.00']Who says it doesn't make sense? They probably just wanted to make the boy's a bit older and leave Dany the same age. They didn't reveal anything yet of the events regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna in the pilot. They can easily have it all make sense or may even never get specific on dates on when events happened. The book gives us a basic timeline but who's to say the series will ever get that in-depth? The fact that Jon and Robb are still same age makes it likely that they were both born during the war and at similar times. Though we can't say this as a fact since nothing yet has been revealed about the war's timeline or major events. They could be fairly similar or drastically different and still be made to make sense in the pilot series world, which is [b]completely separate[/b] from the books. Your inability to realize this fact is the major flaw in your arguments.[/quote]
And you are wrong here. It's not completely separate and on its own (especially since GRRM has said that it's faithful). It's adaptation that has to follow storylines and events, while presenting them on television, not reimagining them.

And btw, the fact that both Jon and Robb are older than Dany with 2 years, means that both of them were born early-on, at the beginning of the war. While according to R+L=J, Jon was born near the end.

[SFDanny]

I would remind everyone that wants to use this script for discussion of the books that one of the main writers, [url="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1125275/"]David Benioff[/url], is the same man who gave us the script for [i]Troy[/i]. You know that version of the Trojan War that had Agamemnon and Menelaus dying at Troy while Paris and Helen run off to live happily ever after. I do have hope that the fact Homer is near 3000 years dead and Martin is very much still alive may give Benioff pause before he changes the basic story I love so much, but I'm not holding my breath to see that it happens. Which reminds me, does anyone know if GRRM actually has veto power on the script that is used to make this series? I hope so, but it would be unusual.

Rinso, this getting silly. You don't even know if this script is real and you are trying to make sweeping conclusions based on something that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what happens in the books and if it did doesn't mean what you say it means. Argue with me about the validity of R+L=J based on the books, or something Martin has said, and I'd be happy to have a civil discussion about it. This discussion just doesn't make any sense.

[Cersei's #1 Fan]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679359' date='Feb 8 2009, 19.30']And btw, the fact that both Jon and Robb are older than Dany with 2 years, means that both of them were born early-on, at the beginning of the war. While according to R+L=J, Jon was born near the end.[/quote]

Do you even see the flaws in this? If Jon and Robb were born at the beginning of the war then that's completely different than the books. Not only that the events surrounding this would be drastically different. Brandon was to marry Cat until he went to Kings Landing where he and his father eventually get killed. Then Cat marries Ned instead when war begins or has already begun. Unless she had the shortest birth in history your timeline completely falls apart. This where trying to compare an adaptation to an original where it's clear there are obvious differences in plot points is beyond silly.

I agree with SFDanny I'm just going to stop arguing it with you. It's apparently just going to be an exercise in futility.

[Shewoman]

Rinso, perhaps you mean that Robb and Jon were both [i]conceived[/i] early in the war, which is suggested in the books. Catelyn tells Robb that he was conceived on her and Ned's wedding night (which was a few months into the war). She also thinks that Robb is older than Jon, which suggests that at that time they were similar enough in development that they may well have been conceived around the same time.

[Rinso]

I meant that if they are older than Dany with 2 years, since she was born after the end of the war, they must be born much earlier than they were in the books.

[Venardhi]

they could be 13 months older than her and the age difference would still work if the birthdays lined up right. it isn't a huge deal, it is an excessive change and might pose problems with the timeline, but I doubt it will be a huge issue. Considering some of the other stuff they seem to have changed out of ignorance, ego or apathy, this is the least of my worries.

[Shewoman]

Rinso--or Dany is born later in the script you have than in the books.

[Rinso]

Or probably David & Dan didn't thought about it at all and I'm just nitpicking. But anyway, it struck me as kinda strange that they aged up Jon so much that he didn't seem to be born near the end of the war like in the book, which I took for kinda required for R+L=J, since for it Lyanna must have died soon after she gave birth. But again, I'm probably nitpicking to the point when SFDanny accused me of silliness :leaving:

[Shewoman]

Rinso, I haven't seen the script, of course, but how old did they make Jon? Did they give him a birthdate? Jon apparently [i][/i]was[i][/i] conceived early in the war, according to the books. We don't know exactly when he was born, but Ned didn't have a baby with him at war's beginning and had one after he found his sister at the ToJ. That doesn't mean the baby was Jon, but it's possible.

[Rinso]

In the script Robb and Jon are listed as 17. Dany is 15. While one of them must be 16 with the whole aging up process if they want to recreate R+L=J.

[Piper]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1679141' date='Feb 8 2009, 16.37']Yeah, but the point is that if the relevance between the ages of Dany and Jon was so important, GRRM would have corrected the mistake. And at least in the version of the script that has leaked on the internet, this was not the case.[/quote]

Does the script indicate that the war lasted a year?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1680745' date='Feb 9 2009, 20.36']In the script Robb and Jon are listed as 17. Dany is 15. While one of them must be 16 with the whole aging up process if they want to recreate R+L=J.[/quote]

No they don't. If the writers of the script want to age the characters (a regrettable product of HBO's phobia about the explicit nature of some of the scenes in the books and young characters) they can do it easily without changing a thing about L+R=J. As I said earlier, if they want Lyanna to die from something other than childbirth, all they have to do is to lengthen the time of the war, have Jon born earlier, and Lyanna die when he is a young baby instead of a new born infant. Nothing else needs to be done. Now, do you have proof that in the script Jon is born after Lyanna dies? Do you have anything that shows Martin approved such a change? No, all you have is that for easily explained reasons the writers of a script we don't even know is real the characters have been made older than they are in the books. When you have something that really pertains to this thread I'll be interested in reading it, but so far all you have is your wishful thinking about how other writer's work impinges on what Martin has written. It has no effect - nada, zilch, zero.