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The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker


kcf

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If Mekeritrig is the nonman that Kellhus met at the very start (I see no mention of it in the passage but supposedly Bakker's confirmed it and some of the things he says do back it up) then I doubt it, unless he's being even more cunning than he's given credit for. He's got an altogether different personality, and I don't think Kellhus would have survived an encounter with a sorcerer of the prowess Cleric shows. Still, out of the information so far, he's probably among the more likely candidates.

He refers to the ghost-thing as cousin, which is a definite clue. If said ghostie is who I think he is (having looked up the name, it's Gin'yursis), then could that make him also royalty, another one of their kings?
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Finished it last night. It was enjoyable, but I felt it was weaker than any of the first trilogy. The Esmenet/Kelmomas storyline was not that interesting, to me. It feels like too much of an irrelevence, and while i'm sure it will become more important later, I found myself skim-reading it too often. The Great Ordeal didn't really get anywhere interesting.

The Achamian storyline was amazing, particularly his dreams, IMO. Seswatha fucked Celmomas's wife, didn't he? Could Kellhus be a descendent of Seswatha? :stunned:

Are the Consult manipulating the cult of Yatwer? The priestess hears voices occasionally, which I took to be that flying bird thing at first, but later wasn't sure. And how exactly did Sorweel's servant bless him so that Kellhus wouldn't see through him? Is Yatwer really taking a role? Personally I prefer my gods to be non-interfering.
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Bakker's never shied from depicting the level of the Consult's involvement though, unless it's in those few cases where he wanted to keep the real identity of a skin-spy secret for the time being. Yatwer's definitely moving against Kellhus and what he represents. Perhaps Kelmomas' intro had subtle foreshadowing of Ajokli's initial movements as well? Just speculating.

After completing the book I remain undecided upon the Yatwerian ritual Sorweel's slave enacted. Does it actually [i]conceal[/i] Sorweel's inner deceit from Kellhus, as shown by the Aspect-Emperor's inability to read him, or did Kellhus overlook for his own nefarious reasons?

As well, after a reread, I've managed to convince myself that the stranger that approached Ironsoul and the Skin-Eaters in the prologue was Dunyain. Speculation also, but it has a little grounding, perhaps.
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[quote name='Maltaran' post='1644937' date='Jan 11 2009, 15.33']He seems to be the major suspect for the White-Luck Warrior, so hopefully he'll grow up a bit in the next book.[/quote]

unless I missed something pretty major, there is no way that Sorweel is the White-Luck Warrior. Sorweel is with the Great Ordeal - the WLW is in the Empire.
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[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1645456' date='Jan 12 2009, 09.28']The Achamian storyline was amazing, particularly his dreams, IMO. Seswatha fucked Celmomas's wife, didn't he? Could Kellhus be a descendent of Seswatha? :stunned:[/quote]

I don't think so - the implication Akka drew was that Seswatha was the father of Nau-Cayuti, but Celmomas had other sons, and according to the appendix in TTT, Nau-Cayuti died at the age of 21.

[quote name='kcf' post='1645798' date='Jan 12 2009, 16.21']unless I missed something pretty major, there is no way that Sorweel is the White-Luck Warrior. Sorweel is with the Great Ordeal - the WLW is in the Empire.[/quote]

I was thinking mainly of the Yatwerian rituals that Sorweel's slave performed - specifically the part where he burns Sorweel's hand with the lamp. Something suspicious is definitely going on there.

However, if the WLW is in the Empire, possibly Fanayal? (the leader of the remnant Fanim)
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[quote name='polishgenius' post='1646522' date='Jan 12 2009, 17.36']I've got Kelmomas as a candidate. Seems a bit unlikely but he's definitely doing Yatwer's work, at least in part.[/quote]

Kelmomas as the White Luck Warrior? The hands of the young man becoming horned with calluses and a veterans strength as the High Priestess of Yatwer rode his phantom cock? Did you take the rite depicted as metaphorical?
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Not necessarily, I'm really not sure on it. If it's not metaphorical (or, at least, the bloke being a symbol for the White-Luck) then it obviously can't be him, which is why I thought it unlikely, but I wouldn't put it past Bakker to be playing a bluff.
Then again, I wouldn't put it past him to make nameless the actual warrior but still be a bluff to get all the attention on him so that both Sorweel (who's definitely under Yatwer's influence) and Kelmomas (who may or may not be) can do the real work.
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I had a dream last night that I was reading 'The Judging Eye'.

The dream contorted my perception, as usual, and in it I quickly found I was reading a post modern deconstruction of a novel, rather than an epic fantasy. I remember thinking that it was a strange follow up to PoN. The predominant image in my memory was a number of pages purposely 'ripped out' (lacuna) followed with a canonical recitation of Kellhus's teachings similarity structured to a religious text (sermons?). Not sure what all this means... :huh:

There was also an interesting author photo on the back of the dream-copy. The book seemed far too short.
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just WOW

the cursed mansion was awesome. The god is a cruel bastard and i understand the Consult. Their means are wrong and they are doing it for the wrong reasons, but the goal is just.

Who or what is the Captain? His behavior was really strange, especially the bit about remembering hell.
Cleric could be Mekeritrig, but why would he leave the Consult to become a scalper? Could he be a spy?
Any idea about the hearts with eyes? WTF was that?
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[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1645684' date='Jan 12 2009, 14.53']As well, after a reread, I've managed to convince myself that the stranger that approached Ironsoul and the Skin-Eaters in the prologue was Dunyain. Speculation also, but it has a little grounding, perhaps.[/quote]

Funny. I just thought that was Akka's servant setting up Akka's introduction with the Skin Eaters.

And i don't care if it was metaphorical but that Matron's whole age-fucking scene was the single most messed up thing in any of Bakkers books, sranc fucking wounds included, its probably the most messed up thing i have ever read full stop. I mean sranc are allowed to do that shit because they are monsters, but the Matron smears her period across peoples faces and then fucks young boys to old age and she's revered ?

I just had to get that off my chest - i will be back with more focused thoughts later, i have yet to finish the lauded Cil-Aujas chapters.

Also, my money is on Kel being the WLW, Sorweel is too human to fight Kellhus significantly. Also the voice in Kel's head - is that really his brother ?
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Just finished it, and I'm pretty underwhelmed. I liked the Kelmonas storyline just because he's so batshit insane and fun to read about. But Sorweel chapters were extremely boring, especially since it just seemed like a retread of The Prince of Nothing, and since he never stops whining, and the only interesting parts (those involving Kellhus' kids, including the one who's not quite his kid) lasted about 8 pages. And Akka's journey was cool, even though I have no idea what the hell was happening in the last chapter, but the whole journey through Moria felt kind of irrelevant and didn't make for a good climax, even if the scenes were well written, entertaining and once again, confusing.

Anyway, I still enjoyed it, and there was some intriguing stuff in there for future books, like Mimara, The White Luck Warrior (completely agree that that Matron fucking scene was seriously disturbing), and the further adventures of Achamian and Kelmonas, who's by far my favourite new character- with Cnaiur gone, we need someone keeping up the crazy. Still, I think that this book didn't work as well as a setup book as The Darkness That Comes Before did- both because we've already been introduced to this world and these characters, and because unlike in Darkness, the plotlines never converge.
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I finished it today.

Overall it was typical Bakker: I loved and hated it at the same time.

My main criticism would be that the book is very short. If you look at it, the Monemn and Great Ordeal-storylines hardly progress. The focus clearly lies on Akka's story, which is well done. But unlike others, I felt his story was more like a Tolkien-ripoff than a Tolkien-hommage. The Skin Eaters were interesting, though. I by the way think that the Traveller-figure from the Prologue is Cleric. There is even a reference later in the book that Nonmen refer to humans as dogs, which is iirc exactly the phrase the person from the Prologue uses. The question than would be why he decided to join the Skin Eaters in the first place. As to his identity: how many Erratics are there? I would assume only a handful, which would make Mekereting (sp?) the most likely candidate.

I want to second the notion that Sorweel is the White-Luck Warrior. I think he'll be responsible for the Great Ordeal's failure. Eventually he will mirror the role of the guy from the First Apocalypse who stole the Heron Spear (some High King who hid it only to reveal in Mengedda that he has it).

I was wondering a couple of times: is the ability of the Few inherited? If so, Sewastha most probably is the reason that this gene passed to the Anasurimbors. Probably Celomas' youngest son is in fact Sewastha's and thats the lad who survived in Ishual. It was interesting to see that the gift did not pass to all of Khellus' children.

I agree that the Consult probably is the driving force behind the Cult of Yatwer. There's much more on my mind, but I have to think about the stuff for awhile.
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[quote name='Besselfunction' post='1659538' date='Jan 23 2009, 16.00']The Skin Eaters were interesting, though. I by the way think that the Traveller-figure from the Prologue is Cleric. There is even a reference later in the book that Nonmen refer to humans as dogs, which is iirc exactly the phrase the person from the Prologue uses.[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Cleric in that scene already? A hooded figure who fit the description, anyway?
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I just finished it.

I felt the first 340 pages were meh. It was slow and the Sorweel/Emmi PoVs just weren't all that interesting. Nothing really happened. Kel is fucking nuts and I like him though thinking of a 7 year old murdering 4 people after sneaking past everyone seems a bit much. I'm also a bit surprised that these people are able to see clearly like Kellhus. I mean, didn't Kellhus train and train and train to get to where he is? Why is it his children just inherited it?

As others have said, the Akka PoV was excellent. I loved the last 70 pages, Moria relation or no. I was very confused about some of the descriptions at the end but that could have been because I was reading so fast. Cleric rules.

That all being said, I don't think it was nearly as good as any of the books in PoN. I see the set up for some badass 2nd and 3rd books, but this book was far too much ground laying and not enough progression.
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[quote name='polishgenius' post='1659596' date='Jan 23 2009, 16.32']Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Cleric in that scene already? A hooded figure who fit the description, anyway?[/quote]

Yep, listening to a stream as I recall.
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Like some of you; I believe that the book ended too quickly. Rather than whetting my appettites for the next book, it instead left me feeling shallow; like I'd read half a book instead of the "full thing". I don't agree with some peoples interpretations of Sorweel though; I didn't find him to be whiny; I thought it was a nice way of showing the effect Khellus has on people, especially proud people.

I didn't like the whole "Judging Eye" thing. The whole point of this series was to show the effect beliefs and assumptions have on people; the idea being that beliefs change with time and that all things are based on perspective. However absolute truth (like sorcerers being inherently evil) completely destroys this argument. If these peoples beliefs are true; then it shouldn't matter that they don't understand them completely, and people threating Akka with chorae are eminently justified; because he is evil, no matter what his actions or inclinations.
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[quote name='Chirios' post='1660685' date='Jan 24 2009, 04.20']I didn't like the whole "Judging Eye" thing. The whole point of this series was to show the effect beliefs and assumptions have on people; the idea being that beliefs change with time and that all things are based on perspective. However absolute truth (like sorcerers being inherently evil) completely destroys this argument. If these peoples beliefs are true; then it shouldn't matter that they don't understand them completely, and people threating Akka with chorae are eminently justified; because he is evil, no matter what his actions or inclinations.[/quote]
Bakker has said in several interviews that in Earwa, things have objective meanings. So sorcery is depicted as being "objectively evil," etc., etc. I would agree with you, however, that this doesn't mesh well with Kellhus, who is able to use subjective truth to manipulate people. I hope that Bakker also recognizes this, and that his later books will resolve the tension between these two themes.
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