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The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker


kcf

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Exactly.

There is plenty of evidence to state that all sorcerers are going to hell - and most of them half believe it it anyway. I find it extremely unlikely that only a dozen odd sorcerers of the Consult have ever tried to change this.

Never mind that an organisation as skilled as the Consult are in espionage couldn't stir up and convince at least a few of the sorcerous schools into joining them.
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Well, in real life there was no shortage of people willing to dabble in black magic, despite not only hypothetical risk of damnation, but also very real risk of burning at the stake. Of course, you may say in real world magic doesn't work, but peole who tried to summon demons had to believe in their existence - and therefore in possibility of damnation.
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Just finished it. I enjoyed it muchly, but right now I'm thinking it was the weakest of the series so far. Like The Darkness That Comes Before, it was definitely a set-up book, the launch pad for the rest of the trilogy, but I think TDTCB had much more meat to it than TJE did. Also, the trip through Cil Aujias was [i]too[/i] close to Moria for my taste.

Some random speculation;

The mysterious stranger that approaches the Skin Eaters in the prologue. I think there's three possibilities here. The first is that it's Kellhus, or one of Kellhus' agents, and that Akka's entire journey is being manipulated from afar by Kellhus. For some reason he [i]wants[/i] Akka to find Ishual. There's got to be some reason he hasn't killed Akka yet ... and sparing him for Esmenet's sake is complete BS, considering all that we know about Kellhus. Second obvious choice is the Consult. We know they were seeking information on the Dunyain, and are desperate to stop Kellhus. The question is, how did they know Akka would run into the Skin Eaters? And why have they waited so long? Third choice would be the Yatwerians. They seem the most unlikely. The only reason they have for helping Akka is a general opposition to Kellhus, though. But if the Gods [i]are[/i] getting involved, like it seems, it's possible they predicted the chain of events leading to Akka's meeting with Mimara and his journey to Marrow in search of an escort.

The Cult of Yatwer. I'm wavering between believing they do have actual power, as shown, and thinking it's all a Consult plot. The main bit of information that made me suspicious was the Yatwerians ability to hide from Kellhus' scrutiny. It's an ability the Consult need now that there skin-spies are exposed.

Kelmomas. Bloody hell. This kid would take down Damien from the Omen and then violate his corpse. As dislikeable as Kellhus is, I like how Bakker has shown us, with Kel's children, how much [i]worse[/i] he could be. That's one fucked up family, and Kelmomas is the pick of the litter.

Marrow. When Akka arrives in the town, I could hear the Deadwood theme playing in my head. I almost expected a mustachioed knifeman to appear and scream "Welcome to fucken' Marrow!"
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Would like to add my dislike of Kellhus's children having a portion of his abilities by simple virtue of being his children - the physical strength and dexterity maybe, but not the reading of faces and manipulation of people

I'm also getting a slight feel of Erikson with the Skin Eaters and Yatwer - could be a good thing, not sure yet
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[quote name='Brady' post='1666502' date='Jan 28 2009, 22.26']Marrow. When Akka arrives in the town, I could hear the Deadwood theme playing in my head. I almost expected a mustachioed knifeman to appear and scream "Welcome to fucken' Marrow!"[/quote]

:lol:

God rest the souls of that poor family... and pussy's half price for the next 15 minutes.
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I've just finished reading TJE, and then hurried in here to finally read the spoilertastic post. i'm surprised by a couple things, in particular:

the complaints that kellhus' children wouldn't be able to read faces. i never read it that way. the ability is made up of two things, familiarity with emotions and the ability to minutely observe a persons face and recognize the configuration. Kellhus needed to learn on examples, i would argue, because he'd never seen an emotive face. it wasn't that he needed to train his observational ability, so much as his familiarity with emotion. his children, being raised among normal people, would grow up familiar with emotive faces, and would read them like second nature.

the comparisons to kellhus' great ordeal with napoleans march. i just don't get it. was there ever a thought that he WOULDN'T march on golgotterath? i guess i just dont get where the comparison comes from, or why people seem surprised by the march.

Those confusions aside, my thoughts on the book:

Cil-Aujas was simply awesome. A wink and a nod to moria, for sure, but undoubtably bakker. Once again, akka is my favorite character in the book, with the history and metaphysics of the world taking a close second.
Like many of you, i didn't love kelmomas, and really didn't buy him killing all those people at the end. Its hard to see where bakker is going with kel. somewhere fucked up, no question, but its, in my opinion, the biggest question mark hovering over the story. The white luck warrior, on the other hand, i think is an interesting plot point, but i didn't quite get as hooked on teh speculation as seems to be the case for many of you.

On the whole, my biggest complaint, and its been mentioned before, is that it doesn't feel like a whole book, even the first in a trilogy or the fourth of six. it feels like half a book. the next volume, i would hope, should have a pretty epic payoff to make up for all the setup and buildup in this one.
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[quote name='Brady' post='1666502' date='Jan 29 2009, 00.26']Marrow. When Akka arrives in the town, I could hear the Deadwood theme playing in my head. I almost expected a mustachioed knifeman to appear and scream "Welcome to fucken' Marrow!"[/quote]

It can be combative!
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[quote name='acantha' post='1667399' date='Jan 29 2009, 23.51']the comparisons to kellhus' great ordeal with napoleans march. i just don't get it. was there ever a thought that he WOULDN'T march on golgotterath? i guess i just dont get where the comparison comes from, or why people seem surprised by the march.[/quote]


Come on, there is a lot of analogies, and I don't doubt they are deliberate - famous emperor who conquered most of known world leads great army to northern wastes. The army has soldiers from all conquered countries, often old enemies, and there is nothing except emperor's personality to keep them together. The army is too big to take provisions with them, there is very little to forage and what there is, the enemy burns. The winter is coming. This has disaster spelled over it with capital letters.

As someone mentioned, there were also previous Ordeals - marchen on Golgotterath during First Apocalypse - which also failed spectacularly. I didn't believe Kellhus will lead army to Golgotterath, because, well, he is supposed to be smarter than that. This simply has to end badly.
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How about this idea: the purpose of the Great Ordeal is not to fight the armies of the Consult or raze Golgotterath, but only to get Kellhus and his sorcerers there, who will do all (or most) of the fighting. They can't travel there alone (Kellhus almost died on his trip from Atrithau to the Three Seas), but with the biggest army in the history of mankind to protect them they might just make it.
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Just finished it last night.

I think it's obvious that the agent in the beginning is Kellhus' and that Akka is being guided. Let's go through the steps:

Mimara shows up [i]just as the Great Ordeal is underway[/i]. We know from her talking with Akka that she is being used by Kellhus; he doesn't know how yet, but we know it to be true. It's no coincidence that the spitting image of Akka's one true love who also happens to be a Few is sent to talk with Akka, and it's no secret what he'd be seeking; he mentioned it to Esmi, after all, in TTT (as did Cnaiur). What Kellhus might not know is Akka's fucked up dreams (though it's possible he does). It doesn't matter. All that matters is that Akka's only shot (like he figures out) is to go to Ishual when the Great Ordeal is going so that the sranc aren't everywhere. And to get him to go, he needs to see a vessel of Kellhus who has been damaged as much as he has. He needs to hate again. He needs to remember.

He needs Mimara.

Kellhus sending an agent to the Skin Eaters is also not that hard to surmise; as Akka points out, they're his only choice. They're the only ones who know of him, who would tolerate him. They're the only ones who will accept him. Kellhus doesn't need to send anyone to anyone else; Akka must go to Marrow, he must find a scalpoi group, and they must be willing to take him on. One with a nonmen and a veteran? This isn't rocket science. They're the most famous, most capable, and they're Akka's only choice. Sending an agent to them is as easy a choice as Kellhus has ever done.

So my bet is that it's Soma. Not that it matters hugely. From a narrative standpoint it'll hurt more when it's revealed. I'll need to recheck and see whether they mention if he's new or has been there for a while, or shows signs of being 'different'.

I think that going through the Mansion was also an important part of this; again, the timing dictates that Akka must go through there. They have no choice. Why does Akka need to see the Outside like this? Why does Mimara? Presumably so that they are exposed to what Hell is. They need to see what they're up against and be opposed to it. There might be other ideas, but that's my guess; it's one step in understanding what the No-God remains.

As to why? That's a good question. My suspicion - and this is just a suspicion - is that the Great Ordeal is serving the same purpose that the march to Mordor did; [i]it's a distraction[/i]. It's huge and obvious and is almost certain to fail. How do you beat the Consult with Men? It's been tried before. It failed before. Kellhus as much admits this to Esmi when he returns; that she must endure losing all to save the world. Kellhus has already written off the kingdom. He's written off everything. He expects it to fail. At the same time he sends Akka out to find something for him and does so while providing just the distraction Akka needs.

The obvious answer is the Heron Spear. But I think it's not that; this is too easy. I he's going to find the Dunyain, and he's going to find the secrets to the No-God. I think Akka remains the Seswatha to Kellhus' Celmomas, and I think Akka is the key to destroying the No-God - and more importantly, I believe that Kellhus understands this too now, or believes it.

I was pretty disappointed with Sorweel's chapters. They, like others have said before me, rang like a rehash of all the 'OMG Kellhus is so dreamy' that we got from the first three books. Sorweel's being girded against Kellhus' machinations is pretty awesome though. Kelmomas's parts are okay, but kind of lame; it's still bothersome to see the most intelligent woman in the world so completely incompetent without Kellhus, and so dependent on him.
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Smoooooth post, Kal. Thought out and well written. If we lived closer together I'd make you my book buddy bitch! :P

One thing I don't quite agree on though, is Esmenet. It seemed a strange decision to me that our only exposure to Esmi, relatively speaking, was through Kelmomas. There were a couple with Maithanet, iirc, but those few times we were privy to her and her alone she was caught up in thoughts of family while she was on her way from one thing to another. It was disappointing, yet behind the scenes she was [i]running[/i] the Empire the whole time. Far from incompetent.

I'm looking forward to the next few books, and hopefully more screen time from her away from Kelmomas.
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I think you're confusing sane for rational. Kellhus has exhibited signs of insanity, but he's always been highly rational.

I hope honestly that Bakker doesn't do something like this. I want Akka's choices to be Akka's. I want him to resist and be the villain to Kellhus instead of his catspaw. But it seems like it's well set-up, so it won't bother me so much; as always, it's Akka's reaction to being used that will be interesting.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1668638' date='Jan 30 2009, 14.32']I hope honestly that Bakker doesn't do something like this. I want Akka's choices to be Akka's. I want him to resist and be the villain to Kellhus instead of his catspaw. But it seems like it's well set-up, so it won't bother me so much; as always, it's Akka's reaction to being used that will be interesting.[/quote]

I don't know - I think that you are probably close to correct. Akka not actually having any choices is very consistent with Bakker's writing. I think it falls in line with the apparent 'proof' that we get that sourcerer's really are damned.
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[quote]It was disappointing, yet behind the scenes she was running the Empire the whole time. Far from incompetent.[/quote]Well, that's just it though; she wasn't running it behind the scenes. She was up front, leading everything, making decisions. And it turned out that all of her decisions were just wrong. She screwed up the matriarch, she screwed up with her son, she flails around ineffectively with the Yatwer cult. Only Kellhus' appearance fixes anything. She constantly doubts herself, is afraid of everything, and dotes on her damaged children with no great effect. Where's the super perceptive woman that Kellhus took and Akka loved? I just didn't really get that part of Esmi. I liked her before, but now she seems too frail, set up to fail.

And I think it's clear that without Kellhus to smack the troops in line, the empire is going to fall. Fayanal's stepped up his attacks and is doing that openly, the cult is increasing in power, more spies are showing up, people are openly challenging her...while it might be that simply she cannot hold together this empire and only Kellhus ever could, the comparison is striking.

[quote]I don't know - I think that you are probably close to correct. Akka not actually having any choices is very consistent with Bakker's writing. I think it falls in line with the apparent 'proof' that we get that sourcerer's really are damned.[/quote]No, I agree with this. This is exactly the sort of thing that Bakker loves to do, which is why I find it likely: give the illusion of choice and then demonstrate precisely how it was not. That's what makes Akka's repudiation so interesting at the end of TTT, and why I'd be disappointed if that doesn't happen here. I know that Akka's being used and right now is too focused on Seswatha's history to really see it, but my hope is that he does eventually see it (or Mimara, using that wacky Judging Eye/Chorae portal tech) - and a reckoning comes.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1668674' date='Jan 30 2009, 21.51']I know that Akka's being used and right now is too focused on Seswatha's history to really see it, but my hope is that he does eventually see it (or Mimara, using that wacky Judging Eye/Chorae portal tech) - and a reckoning comes.[/quote]

What reckoning ? Kellhus may be a bastard but he gets the job done, as far as the world is concerned then Kellhus really is the Messiah and without him humanity would be lost. I think Akka knows this.

The more i think about your theory the more sense it makes. Though i think Akka already knows he is being used; i don't have the books to hand right now and i read them a while back so maybe im wrong, but didn't Akka already realise that Kellhus probably sent Miamara to him and that he wouldn't be able to refuse her because she looked just like her mother ?
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[quote]What reckoning ? Kellhus may be a bastard but he gets the job done, as far as the world is concerned then Kellhus really is the Messiah and without him humanity would be lost. I think Akka knows this.[/quote]I don't know that that is true, and it doesn't matter. Akka doesn't care about the world any more, or his mission as a Mandate schoolman. And it's not clear from Akka's dreams whether he sees Kellhus as savior or demon. His comparison to the No-God in TTT is a pretty good indication of what he feels may be Kellhus' goal.

Mostly though, Kellhus is in many ways a horrible person, even if his means are to a supposedly good end. Akka isn't about the world. He's about the person. He always has been. His is a personal tale, and the reckoning would be a personal one.

[quote]Though i think Akka already knows he is being used; i don't have the books to hand right now and i read them a while back so maybe im wrong, but didn't Akka already realise that Kellhus probably sent Miamara to him and that he wouldn't be able to refuse her because she looked just like her mother ?[/quote]
No, Akka knows that Mimara was being conditioned and sent to him. What I don't think he knows is that Kellhus is counting on Akka's reaction to her being what it was and doing what he's doing. I think he's not thinking things through properly enough and it's clouding his judgment. In particular, I think he thinks that Kellhus' goal was to get him to teach Mimara the Gnosis (something that the Mandate wouldn't do regardless of Kellhus' station). I don't think he's realizing that teaching her anything is just a distraction, and I think that his abandoning her before setting out is 'defeating' Kellhus.
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Kal,

Well thought out. The only thing I'd disagree on is Soma being Kellhus' agent. Soma is one of the 'Bitten', which means he's an old veteran of the slog, and has been out there for years. I think Soma's backstory will be something different - and I don't doubt that he has one, a Nilnameshi caste noble that has burned his ancestor lists and thus damned himself to hell for some unknown reason, and is possibly a eunuch on top of that will definitely have more than a bit of a tale to tell.
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Yeah. I wasn't sure about whether Soma was an old veteran or not. I just thought his familiarity with Mimara and her like of him would make a betrayal a good narrative point. It's possible they made that up about Soma, but chances are that it's someone vaguely new.

Or the agent simply didn't come with them,and just instructed them to do...something...for or to Akka.
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