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The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker


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One thing about that post of Kal's-Kelmomas claims that it was him who drove Mimara away, at the behest of his secret voice. Doesn't mean of course that he's right that it was him, or that Kellhus didn't shape her destination (as the implication is Kelmomas just wanted her away, didn't care where), or hey, who knows, maybe the voice is Kellhus somehow, but it's something to consider in the theory, because it'd interfere with the timing part.
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I'll have to check that part out again. I missed that. It could be pretty easily explained by Kelmomas thinking he did drive her away when it was...other things. In particularly Mimara seems like she left mostly because of Esmi, not because of Kel.
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Kelmonas claims credit for it - all part of his scheme to have 'Mommy' to himself. [i]But[/i] Kelmonas is also deathly afraid of his father because Kellhus is one of the few that can see right through Kelmonas, which means it's not impossible that Kellhus manipulated Kelmonas to drive Mimara away (an added layer of insulation in case Akka got suspicious, perhaps). Since we get no Kellhus POVs, we pretty much have to guess when/if people are being manipulated.
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Quick question about covers for this:

What happened to the old cover Pat had up on his Blog? [url="http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2008/08/cover-art-for-r-scott-bakkers-judging.html"]http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2008/08...rs-judging.html[/url]

I liked it, and I been looking around, but I can't find it. Did they change it or something?
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I reread it, and Mimara credits Kelmomas for making a pretty hurtful statement. It's not really clear whether that's what drove her to Akka though; at least as far as she's concerned, her first and biggest mission was to learn sorcery. That's what both Esmi and Mimara say to themselves, and it's clear that Esmi knows she's going to Akka. So...I don't think Kel drove her away nearly as much as Esmi did.
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Sweet. Finished reading it so I can play with you guys now.

My thoughts were pretty similar to what others have said. Akka's story is by far the best. The Great Ordeal is pretty boring so far. Sorweel is a little bitch - we need another POV in the Great Ordeal. We have two POVs in the other two main storylines - why not throw in Proyas or Saubon, or one of Kellhus's kids? We need more of ALL of those characters btw. Great Ordeal is a waste of potential so far but I'm guessing more focus will be thrown that way in the next two books.

Kelmomas is my favourite character so far. Such a creepy little psycho. The way he comes off as a cute innocent little kid to his Mum. The bit where he was all [i]"Momma... I-I can be Sammi..."[/i] was chilling.

The sorcery is always awesome with Bakker. All threads of incandescence and shimmering parabolas.

One thing Bakker does weirdly, though, is the whole 'making threads via humour' thing. He does it twice in the book. One time with Akka and the Skin Eaters where Akka makes some (crap) joke and they all laugh and he gets sad that he's leading his new friends to their deaths. The next, and just plain odd, one is with Zsoronga and Sorweel. "Aaaaaaaaaah!" "Aaaaaaaaaah!" [i]"Aaaaaaaaaah!"[/i] That made me cringe.

The nameless ones = awesome. I love the little, forbidden creep as fuck things in Bakker's books that get brief mentions.

Not a big fan of Mimara. Was hoping she'd be more insane. She just didn't come across as fucked up as she should be given her past.

Looking forward to Maithanet playing a bigger role in the next book, he was such a prodigious and pivotal figure in the first one but in TJE he's basically just Esmenet's advisor. I think Esmi is going to go against him due to Kel's manipulation, and her downfall will be [i]glorious[/i].

More of Kellhus's kids pls. They are fascinating. I don't care about them having special skillz with no training. They are [i]all[/i] great. I want to see more of the insane one and more of Mhoengus (he's quite mad!).

Who says they haven't been trained anyway? I'm willing to bet Kellhus has shown them basic face reading. No fucked up Dunyain shit but I bet he's taught them, the older ones especially, some stuff. They are clearly not on Kellhus's level, not by a long way, and I think that's how Kellhus likes it. He did stab his own dad, after all.
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Finally read it. I'm still wondering about Cleric. A lot of people seem to think he's Mekeritrig, but I'm still unsure. And I would be pretty disappointed if (with the exception of the ghost in Cil-Aujas) Mekeritrig is the only Nonman in the book so far. Also, does anyone know if he's still possessed when he leaves Cil-Aujas?
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[quote name='Deluge' post='1676775' date='Feb 6 2009, 18.48']Finally read it. I'm still wondering about Cleric. A lot of people seem to think he's Mekeritrig, but I'm still unsure. And I would be pretty disappointed if (with the exception of the ghost in Cil-Aujas) Mekeritrig is the only Nonman in the book so far. Also, does anyone know if he's still possessed when he leaves Cil-Aujas?[/quote]


I think Achamian should recognize Mekerirtig form Seswatha's memories. True, its is mentioned that all Non-Men look alike for Men, but surely not to Seswatha who knew them intimately? SOmeone theorized he can be Nin'janjin, the original Non-Man traitor. That would absolutely rock, IMHO, but I am not sure if he is still alive.
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[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace']SOmeone theorized he can be Nin'janjin, the original Non-Man traitor. That would absolutely rock, IMHO, but I am not sure if he is still alive.[/quote]

That's the trouble with speculating about his identity: the only Nonman we [i]know [/i]to be alive is Mekeritrig.;)
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I think that Cleric isn't going to be Meketertrig; he was pretty clearly able to have a lot more coherence than Cleric has so far shown.

I think it's also clear that Cleric is going to be a nonman that was involved with Seshwatha but not hugely part of the apocalypse dreams. He's going to dream of him in one of the stubbed toe type of dreams and realize who he is and what he's about.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1677182' date='Feb 6 2009, 16.02']I think that Cleric isn't going to be Meketertrig; he was pretty clearly able to have a lot more coherence than Cleric has so far shown.

I think it's also clear that Cleric is going to be a nonman that was involved with Seshwatha but not hugely part of the apocalypse dreams. He's going to dream of him in one of the stubbed toe type of dreams and realize who he is and what he's about.[/quote]
I don't know if I like the idea of Mekeretrig being coherent. I always saw the four main members of the Consult as being emblematic of the faults of their peoples: Aurang and Aurax are vicious perverts (which is baseline for the Inchoroi, I guess), the human guy (whose name I can't seem to remember) is power hungry, and Mekeritrig is bugfuck crazy.
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Mek is crazy, but he's coherent. He knows who he is, what he's doing. He isn't just randomly remembering things here and there. Cleric...he just doesn't seem to fit. I know, 20 years is a while, and Mek absolutely would have a scorched mark. Still, I don't think that's going to happen.
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[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1663675' date='Jan 27 2009, 07.32']Well, in real life there was no shortage of people willing to dabble in black magic, despite not only hypothetical risk of damnation, but also very real risk of burning at the stake. Of course, you may say in real world magic doesn't work, but peole who tried to summon demons had to believe in their existence - and therefore in possibility of damnation.[/quote]

Yeah, but the one key difference between the two is that in Bakkers world - Sorcerers BLOW SHIT UP!!

The fact that there hasn't been any smaller sourcery wars or Consult wars in the last two thousand years really bothers me, but i guess i'll just wait and see. Maybe there have been attempts but the 100 Gods keep getting involved or something.

[quote name='acantha' post='1667399' date='Jan 29 2009, 22.51']the complaints that kellhus' children wouldn't be able to read faces. i never read it that way. the ability is made up of two things, familiarity with emotions and the ability to minutely observe a persons face and recognize the configuration. Kellhus needed to learn on examples, i would argue, because he'd never seen an emotive face. it wasn't that he needed to train his observational ability, so much as his familiarity with emotion. his children, being raised among normal people, would grow up familiar with emotive faces, and would read them like second nature.[/quote]

Excellent theory; it makes sense objectively and within the continuity of the books. You've convinced me

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1673428' date='Feb 4 2009, 13.24']The nameless ones = awesome. I love the little, forbidden creep as fuck things in Bakker's books that get brief mentions.[/quote]

Care to refresh my memory ?

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1673428' date='Feb 4 2009, 13.24']More of Kellhus's kids pls. They are fascinating. I don't care about them having special skillz with no training. They are [i]all[/i] great. I want to see more of the insane one and more of Mhoengus (he's quite mad!).[/quote]

Agree completely - Kayutas' little cammio was perhaps the best moment in the book.
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[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1677393' date='Feb 6 2009, 22.52']The fact that there hasn't been any smaller sourcery wars or Consult wars in the last two thousand years really bothers me, but i guess i'll just wait and see. Maybe there have been attempts but the 100 Gods keep getting involved or something.[/quote]

There were the Scholastic Wars, which were holy wars declared by the Shriah against the Schools.
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[quote name='Maltaran' post='1677455' date='Feb 6 2009, 23.21']There were the Scholastic Wars, which were holy wars declared by the Shriah against the Schools.[/quote]

True. But it was instigated by the Shriah and the Consult didn't send its legions to help. Feels a bit lacklustre to me.

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1677774' date='Feb 7 2009, 04.18']Kellhus's kids who are born with like eight arms and no face, or something.[/quote]

Thanks.
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[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']True. But it was instigated by the Shriah and the Consult didn't send its legions to help. Feels a bit lacklustre to me.[/quote]

Why would the Consult get involved? Are you suggesting they could have allied with the Thousand Temples? That doesn't make sense, since most (possibly all) members of the Consult are sorcerers in their own right.

They are working to bring back the No-God, in the meantime they're just gathering information. Without the crazy whirlwind, they are just a small group of sorcerers who can't act openly lest the whole world turn on them. Once Mog-Pharau is back they have control of the innumerable Sranc hordes that have kept civilization from returning to the northern parts of Eärwa.
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I agree that the Traveler from the prologue is one of the surviving members of the Skin Eaters. Somma makes a lot of sense. I also have a strange suspicion that it could be Sarl since he is notably absent from the prologue. I have no idea if the Traveler is an agent of 1) Kelhus, 2) the Hundred, 3) the Consult or 4) the Dunyain, but I would rank it in about that order of likelihood.

My read of the crazy scene with the reverse aging was that the WLW was metaphorical in that scene. It was not the real WLW. I think Sorweel is far and away the most likely candidate for the WLW.

Totally agree with acantha that it makes sense that Kel's children can read and manipulate people. Love the theory that Little Kel is hearing the thief god in his head.
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Sarl is a good choice, since he seems so integrated into the Skin Eaters, such a true veteran. And for the majority of the book, Sarl sticks to Kosoter's side like glue, yet he's absent from the prologue as unJon pointed out. I would have suspected Kiampas as well, the ex Nansur officer, if he hadn't been killed. There is the possibility the Traveller didn't hang around with the Skin Eaters, but it seems way more likely that he did, and weve met him.
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