Galactus Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 OK, a few questions: Is the Swayal Compact gnostic or anagogic? And was it just me or was there a new School founded as well? (previously we had the Saik, the mercenary School, the Spires and the Mandati, but there's another one mentioned in TJE) Also, did anyone feel the book was... Really short? Not much seemed to happen. Essentially it kind of feels like it brings us up to speed with what happened since TTT, but not much new actually happens. It felt really... Short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 [quote name='Galactus']Is the Swayal Compact gnostic or anagogic? And was it just me or was there a new School founded as well? (previously we had the Saik, the mercenary School, the Spires and the Mandati, but there's another one mentioned in TJE)[/quote] I don't think we have any indication of what sorcerous tradition the Swayal Compact follows, though I could imagine that both the Mandate as well as the anagogic Schools would have been even less thrilled with the idea of someone teaching women the Gnosis. As for a new School being mentioned in TJE, I don't recall that. The glossary in TTT makes mention of: the Circle of Nibel, the Imperial Saik, the Mandate, the Mysunsai (aka the mercenary School) and the Scarlet Spires. These are only the "major Schools", though, so there is room for a number of minor ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 [quote name='Brady' post='1666502' date='Jan 29 2009, 00.26']Also, the trip through Cil Aujias was [i]too[/i] close to Moria for my taste.[/quote] Personally, I liked it [i]better[/i] than Moria. My gut was twisted in knots of suspense and horror while I was reading those chapters. That place [i]was[/i] Hell. [quote]And was it just me or was there a new School founded as well? (previously we had the Saik, the mercenary School, the Spires and the Mandati, but there's another one mentioned in TJE)[/quote] The only other one I can think of would be the Circle of Nibel. During the Great Council, they mention a Nilnameshi Grandmaster, who I assume is the Grandmaster of the Circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 You know, I THOUGHT Cil-Ajaus was going to be awesome (from what people here had told me) but... It wasn't. It just felt like well, Moria, with an undead thing. Not really that scary or original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValyrianDragonlord Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I kinda wonder if the Mandate are even allowed by their Seswathan homunculus to teach the Gnosis to outsiders. I remember when Akka couldn't even physically teach Kellhus and had to be hypnotized in order to teach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowncoatGR Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 [quote name='TheValyrianDragonlord' post='1680479' date='Feb 9 2009, 23.06']I kinda wonder if the Mandate are even allowed by their Seswathan homunculus to teach the Gnosis to outsiders. I remember when Akka couldn't even physically teach Kellhus and had to be hypnotized in order to teach him.[/quote] Yeah, but Serwa's teacher is quite likely Kellhus himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvilKing Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I hope Bakker cranks out some wracu action in the next book, although I guess he'll probably save it for the third one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The glossary in TJE lists [b]the Vokalati[/b] as one of the Major Schools. The Circle of Nibel is not mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 My guess is that this major School mentioned in TJE which wasn't in the first trilogy is from Nilnamesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I was surprised to see that Ioyokus (sp) was the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires. Jussi - dammit, sounds like your copy has a different glossary to mine. I just checked and there's no mention of that School in my copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Which edition do you have? I read the Orbit trade paperback version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 [quote name='Galactus' post='1680476' date='Feb 9 2009, 16.05']You know, I THOUGHT Cil-Ajaus was going to be awesome (from what people here had told me) but... It wasn't. It just felt like well, Moria, with an undead thing. Not really that scary or original.[/quote] I really have mixed feelings on this subject. Cil-Aujas was pretty hyped, but I'm not convinced that the differences between it and Moria were enough to justify the similarities. I dunno, maybe I need to read through it again, I think there was a lot of stuff about the Nonmen that I missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcf Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 [quote name='Deluge' post='1683094' date='Feb 11 2009, 11.04']I really have mixed feelings on this subject. Cil-Aujas was pretty hyped, but I'm not convinced that the differences between it and Moria were enough to justify the similarities. I dunno, maybe I need to read through it again, I think there was a lot of stuff about the Nonmen that I missed.[/quote] Well, as someone who is [url="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/2008/12/judging-eye-by-r-scott-bakker.html"]probably guilty of that hype[/url] (though I think buzz is the proper word, but I digress), I stand by my reaction. Of course I had avoided all reviews and such of tJE before reading it, so it was completely fresh to me. I thought that it neatly balanced homage to Tolkien/fantasy tradition while being fresh, action-pacted and introspective. I found Bakker's take on it in [url="http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-r-scott-bakker-interview.html"]Pat's recent interview[/url] interesting. [quote]Cil-Aujas was part of the original storyline from way back when–I’m a former D&D geek, remember! Since I was such an idiot back then, I’m really not sure whether the choice was deliberate or not. It certainly became self-conscious at some point. The thing to remember is that Tolkien himself was paying homage to the epic tradition more generally when he conceived his version. Homer, Virgil, and of course, Dante. You always kiss a lot of dead ass when you decide to embrace an established literary form.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Jussi' post='1682945' date='Feb 12 2009, 03.15']Which edition do you have? I read the Orbit trade paperback version.[/quote] Got the Orbit paperback as well, but I just double-checked and the Vokalati are in there, must have missed it the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Barnes and Noble just shipped it! (USA) This thread has lowered my expectations to a comfortable level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sariel Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I really did enjoy the book, though yes, I found it a bit short. I want my tomes! Anyways, I quite enjoyed the tolkien homage, and I also found a lot of Iain Banks in the chapters following Kelhus youngest son. A lot of parallels to the Wasp Factory, but perhaps I' just influenced by Bakker having mentioned Banks in one of his interviews. Akka's storyline was by far the best, but what I liked the most was how it Kelhus seems to be slowly losing control of his scheme. There are variables he seems no longer to be in control of. I think that he is losing himself in the messiah persona and that he is growing more insane by the hour. And what is the true purpose of his great ordeal? It could be anything, but I doubt it is what he says it is. At least not directly. For all we know his true purpose could be to get the entire war potential of his empire destroyed. Heh, but I digress a bit. About Kelhus losing control: There are now powers in play that he has previously dismissed as if they were nothing but a minor nuisance. As it turns out now however, the gods seem to be much more than that and they have the power to challenge him, if not perhaps directly. How the true emotions of the young king are hidden from Kellhus is a perfect example of this. I do not think Kellhus have considered the option of anyone being able to hide from him face to face. 20 years of reading everything in everyone he meets must have resulted in a level of complacency, even in him. And the fact that he felt forced to travel like he did back to the capitol clearly shows that the machine he has built does not work as efficiently as he thought it would. There are flaws, and they are growing. And then there's his son, who actually seems a potential danger to his father. Killing 4 people at the age of 7, the way he did it. Could Kellhus have done the same? How old was he in the flashback where they were beaten with a stick by the older member of his order? And what was up with the judging eye and the chorae at the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvilKing Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 [quote]And what was up with the judging eye and the chorae at the end?[/quote] Hopefully it'll be explained in the next What Came Before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afterroots Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 In regards to Sorweel fooling Kellhus, i never felt that it was definite that his face was mis-read. I thought Kellhus may have simply claimed his face was how it was for whatever reason he may of had. Don't forget Kellhus doesn't rely purely on the face but also on things like pulse, sweat and physical movements i.e fidgeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gladius Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I like it even more after a reread. Maithanet seems the most human of the half dunyain and i believe that he is a true friend and not just an advisor to Esmi. This is probably the main reason why the little devil wants him dead. I hope Mimmara develops her curse even more though i fear it could end in madness. Cleric... He could replace Cnaiur as my favorite character. The only thing i missed in this book was the Consult. Skin spies are not enough, i want my little bird back :cry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 [quote]Heh, but I digress a bit. About Kelhus losing control: There are now powers in play that he has previously dismissed as if they were nothing but a minor nuisance. As it turns out now however, the gods seem to be much more than that and they have the power to challenge him, if not perhaps directly. How the true emotions of the young king are hidden from Kellhus is a perfect example of this. I do not think Kellhus have considered the option of anyone being able to hide from him face to face.[/quote]It's interesting that you bring this up. I read the interview he did with Dylan a while back, and one of his big points was that humans have a problem thinking outside the realm of what they know and expect. That's how Kellhus conquers the Inrithi, after all; he seems like one of them, acts like one of them, then tells them things that no one could possibly know; they only can think that he's either a god or a demon at that point. He's from the Outside. Well, that's great and Kellhus pwns, yadda yadda. But what's outside of Kellhus' experience? What can't he comprehend? One thing that could trip him up is the thought that he cannot read or manipulate a non-conditioned human. I don't think this would even occur to him as a specific issue to defend against. However, I do think that he's smart enough to be able to know that he doesn't know everything, especially regarding the Outside. And that's why I think that the Great Ordeal isn't meant to beat the Consult. He has no idea what the Consult can bring against him. He's heard stories and may even have Seswatha's dreams, but they aren't going to be the full answer. In addition, he doesn't know what else lurks in the Outside. He may be able to realize this and be trying to set up ways to make his enemies show themselves so that he can fight them. Basically, the Great Order has the purpose of being a stalking horse, in addition to serving as a way to let Akka move into the wilderness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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