The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[JGP]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1686385' date='Feb 13 2009, 17.26']In addition, he doesn't know what else lurks in the Outside.[/quote]

I've wondered about the veracity this, actually. There was a very small passage with with the Skin Eaters in which Achamian reflects darkly upon rumors he'd heard that Kellhus trips into the Outside, considering the heads of the Ciphrang that adorn the Aspect-Emperors waist. Interesting implications there that raise a lot of questions, for me anyway.

[GoN]

Bumped for Brady :P

[kuenjato]

Just got it. UPS said they'd deliver today, and I came home expecting it ... alas, it was not there. A good thing, I finished a paper on Cicero instead, then went outside and... bingo. :cheers:

First impressions. I might have preferred the original abstract cover, but this 'face' one is still much better than the 'faces' from the first trilogy.

The map looks better. No significant changes other than the ocean is better defined (the original always struck me as too Christopher Tolkien-esque with those water lines).

The "What has come before" distills a lot of history in a few pages. Moe is dead, wonder how Nerdanel is going to take that? Cnaiur, well, :cry: but that is probably for the best.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='kuenjato' post='1689028' date='Feb 17 2009, 15.19']The "What has come before" distills a lot of history in a few pages. Moe is dead, wonder how Nerdanel is going to take that? Cnaiur, well, :cry: but that is probably for the best.[/quote]

Heh, well I'm sure Nerdanel could claim the 'What Has Come Before' section is written as if from a character living in Earwa. Thus, since Moenghus is commonly believed to be dead, Moenghus is reported as being dead. Not that I think there's any doubt :dunno:

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1686710' date='Feb 15 2009, 02.35']I've wondered about the veracity this, actually. There was a very small passage with with the Skin Eaters in which Achamian reflects darkly upon rumors he'd heard that Kellhus trips into the Outside, considering the heads of the Ciphrang that adorn the Aspect-Emperors waist. Interesting implications there that raise a lot of questions, for me anyway.[/quote]

You know what? I sort of glossed that part. For some reason I thought the demon heads were from the demons running around at the end of TTT. Then I remembered that it was Akka who took that ugly sucker down, not Kellhus.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Brady' post='1689038' date='Feb 17 2009, 05.25']Heh, well I'm sure Nerdanel could claim the 'What Has Come Before' section is written as if from a character living in Earwa. Thus, since Moenghus is commonly believed to be dead, Moenghus is reported as being dead. Not that I think there's any doubt :dunno:[/quote]


Well, it clearly was written from POV of someone living in Earwa - as opposite to such chapters in previous volumes which were written by omniscient narrator. I don't doubt Moenghus is dead, but is Kellhus now officially mad, or is it only an opinion?

[kuenjato]

Page 163, chapter seven. Not sure where it's going to go, but so far, I liking [i]TJE [/i]a LOT. Though more set-up and not nearly as epic, I feel this is generally better written than the second and third books of [i]PoN[/i] - Bakker took more time with this one, and the prose shows.

Akka's storyline, predictably, shines the strongest. The whole scene in the tavern/introduction of Cleric was amazing. And Kelmomus setting up his twin - that shocked the hell out of me. Little bastard. :tantrum: WTF was with the little voice saying "why didn't you kill me before?" -- manipulation, or something deeper?

[unJon]

[quote name='Bastard of Godsgrace' post='1689179' date='Feb 17 2009, 03.32']Well, it clearly was written from POV of someone living in Earwa - as opposite to such chapters in previous volumes which were written by omniscient narrator. I don't doubt Moenghus is dead, but is Kellhus now officially mad, or is it only an opinion?[/quote]
Pretty clear from TTT that he is mad.

[unJon]

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1685497' date='Feb 13 2009, 09.00']Hopefully it'll be explained in the next What Came Before.[/quote]
:rofl:

[kuenjato]

Finished it last night. Stayed up until 2; I bascially read from Cleric's "The Black Halls" all the way to the end.

Impressions:

1) Unlike some others, I felt the book was just the right length, and though it does "just end" on two of the storylines, each concludes in what I felt to be an appropriate place. Sorweel discovering Kellhus can no longer read his face (I'm of the opinion that he is the White Luck Warrior); Kelmomas's little "adventure" and his deciding he is the unseen ruler; the conclusion of the Cil-Aujas storyline.

2) Cil-Aujas. A lot to think about in those last 20-30 pages. What exactely did M. percieve through the Tear of God? The Outside? The God? The whole section with Cleric and the Nonman King/Seal of Hell was a serious WTF weirdness, as expressed elsewhere on the thread. The Bashrags were almost... disappointing; I had the impression from TTT that they were larger and far more dangerous. Still, that part where the Bashrag was chucking Sranc corpses at Cleric made me giggle.

3) I agree with Pat, Wert, Dylan et al. that this book feels tighter and better paced than any of the PoN books. As far as content, I currently hold it alongside [i]TDtCB [/i]as the best in the series. Dunno why - might be the lack of Esmenet/Achaiman/Serwe "OMG Kellhus!" repitition that grew sort of old on re-reads of [i]TWP [/i]and [i]TTT[/i].

I can sort of map out what's to come. Given the distances involved, Achaiman will probably reach Sauglish and discover the map to Ishual by the end of book 2. Kelmomas will continue to undermine Esmenet and the New Empire. The Great Ordeal may/may not reach Golgotterah -- and that leads to one thing that sort of bugged me in the book. There is all this emphasis on reaching the Consult's lair before winter - but the task of destroying the Ark seems a major one, involving considerable time; then there is the return journey (two thousand miles!). In that light, the entire expedition feels like a suicide march to "save" Earwa.

Naturally, I fully expect all these expectations to be dashed in the books to come. :read:

EDIT: Also interesting - [i]no [/i]POV from Kellhus.

[Kalbear]

I've started my reread of this after doing my marathon read of it.

For starters, it's clear that Sorweel is absolutely not the White-Luck Warrior. Nor is anyone that we've met, at least traditionally. It's not symbolic, it's not figurative; there is an actual male in Momemn that is the White Luck Warrior, who was young and beautiful and unscarred. Nannaferi is very clearly preparing the young, untarnished WLW with the ritual which makes her younger and makes him ready; this is stated in the text unambiguously. She is not taking youth. She is [i]giving[/i] experience. This is important to note, as it's what Yatwer is all about; the act of giving, not taking. In this light the ritual is much more a blessing to him.

Sadly it does not give any more clues into who he is. From his age, he'd have to be born around the time PoN ended or thereabouts. But it's not Moe (son of Cnaiur)...perhaps it's one of kellhus progeny that stuck around? Inrilahadfsgasdfsd? (sorry, don't have the book in front of me and there's no way I'll be able to remember his spelling).

[Kalbear]

Here's another small thought that bothers me a bit.

What if Akka's dreams of Seswatha are being put there by Kellhus?

We know that the Mandate can talk to each other via the dreams (we see this several times in PoN), and we know that they can influence what the other is dreaming in weird ways (again, PoN, when Akka's talking about Kellhus). We know Kellhus does this too (they mention that he does this when he finds out about the cult of Yatwer causing problems and comes back to kick ass).

Could Kellhus be conditioning Akka for the last [i]twenty years[/i]? Could Akka's trip to Ishual be his own Shortest Path in the same way Moe laid it down for Kellhus?

Also, on rereading I think the Black Halls was not intended by Kellhus; they were closed by a spring storm, which I doubt Kellhus could have predicted. Doesn't really matter exactly.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='polishgenius' post='1645030' date='Jan 11 2009, 18.00']If Mekeritrig is the nonman that Kellhus met at the very start (I see no mention of it in the passage but supposedly Bakker's confirmed it and someof the things he says do back it up) then I doubt it, unless he's being even more cunning than he's given credit for. He's got an altogether different personality, and I don't think Kellhus would have survived an encounter with a sorcerer of the prowess Cleric shows. Still, out of the information so far, he's probably among the more likely candidates.

He refers to the ghost-thing as cousin, which is a definite clue. If said ghostie is who I think he is (having looked up the name, it's Gin'yursis), then could that make him also royalty, another one of their kings?[/quote]


The identity of Incariol has been tops on my list of questions since finished TJE.

A number of the things he said throughout the book have steered me towards whom I think he is. I agree that he is likely not Mekeritrig. The personality IS all wrong, and I do think Akka would have remembered him. We do know that Mek was in Sauglish at or shortly after the fall... A scene from PON had Seswatha suspended on the walls while Mek taunted him. This is where Akka would remember the face/voice/person if Cleric was Mek.


When the Skin eaters decide to brave the black halls, Incariol states, "I lived there on the sufferance of my cousins, long ago... Before the Age of Men."

This implies that he was not a native of Cil-Aujas. Before the time of Men was they heyday of the Nonmen. From the little history we have of this time, there is little to suggest that there were alot of refugees. However, the nonman Mansion of Viri was beset by a number of issues - the incu-holoinas/arc of the inchoroi, the invasion by Cu'jara Cinmoi, the betrayal of Nin Jan'jin. So, there would be ample reason for a nonman son of Viri to seek refuge at another mansion.

Now, to this issue of Gin'yursis addressing Incariol as cousin... It is already acknowledged that Incariol is ishroi, or Nonman nobility. Perhaps all ishroi refer to each other as cousin? However, I think the prospect of Incariol being of a Royal ishroi line more likely. What royal ishroi line would have a son who was no longer welcome in his own mansion at the height of the Nonmen ages? A ruling house of Viri! Perhaps even the son of Nin Jan'jin?

Akka is very disturbed by the fact that he does not know the name Incariol from Seswatha's dreams, or any of the histories he has read. Would not a son of Nin Jan'Jin be a person whom the nonmen might want to write OUT of their history? Or who might, on his own volition, seek to maintain a low profile?

Cleric suggested he had known Ishterebinth, though it was not called such then - Instead, Ishoriol, with Nil'Giccas as king. Nil'Giccas marched with Anasurimbor Celmomas during the apocalypse. This would have been the time of men, in which case Cleric was no longer in Cil-Aujas. Maybe Nil'Giccas had a contingent of nonmen/ishroi helping defend Sauglish when it fell, of which Cleric was a member? The nonmen must have realized the importance of the contents of the Coffers in the Sohonc library.

So there you have it. I think Cleric / Incariol is a member of the ruling line of Viri. Possibly the son of Nin Jan'jin. Please poke holes in my theory.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692675' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.30']Here's another small thought that bothers me a bit.

What if Akka's dreams of Seswatha are being put there by Kellhus?

Could Kellhus be conditioning Akka for the last [i]twenty years[/i]? Could Akka's trip to Ishual be his own Shortest Path in the same way Moe laid it down for Kellhus?[/quote]

I got the impression that there was sort of cross-time dream-state communication between Akka and Seswatha. The scene where Nau-Cayuti bursts in when Celmomas is giving Uncle Seswa the map to Ishual and asks, "Who is Mimara?" makes me think that while Akka dreams Seswatha's life, perhaps a side effect of whatever insight Akka is having into the dreams of Seswa's mundane life have opened up a sort of dream-time conduit, such that Seswatha, in the past, dreams Akka's dreams of the future.

[kuenjato]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692601' date='Feb 19 2009, 12.33']I've started my reread of this after doing my marathon read of it.

For starters, it's clear that Sorweel is absolutely not the White-Luck Warrior. Nor is anyone that we've met, at least traditionally. It's not symbolic, it's not figurative; there is an actual male in Momemn that is the White Luck Warrior, who was young and beautiful and unscarred. Nannaferi is very clearly preparing the young, untarnished WLW with the ritual which makes her younger and makes him ready; this is stated in the text unambiguously. She is not taking youth. She is [i]giving[/i] experience. This is important to note, as it's what Yatwer is all about; the act of giving, not taking. In this light the ritual is much more a blessing to him.

Sadly it does not give any more clues into who he is. From his age, he'd have to be born around the time PoN ended or thereabouts. But it's not Moe (son of Cnaiur)...perhaps it's one of kellhus progeny that stuck around? Inrilahadfsgasdfsd? (sorry, don't have the book in front of me and there's no way I'll be able to remember his spelling).[/quote]


mmm, that's great. It's hard to imagine he wouldn't be introduced in the first book. That theory about the insane progeny is a good one - I'd a feeling he'd play an important role throughout the first read.

[unJon]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692675' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.30']What if Akka's dreams of Seswatha are being put there by Kellhus?[/quote]
It's an interesting thought but I do not think it holds up because Akka continues his odd Seswatha dreams as he travels. The cant of calling only works if the caller knows the location where the person is sleeping. So the dreams should have stopped when Akka leaves the tower. Possibly Kel has figured out how to circumvent this limitation . . .

Also, Kal, will need to re-read the scene, but on my first reading, I did not think the kid that ages in the scene was actually the WLW.

[quote name='nonman_erratic' post='1692691' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.37']The identity of Incariol has been tops on my list of questions since finished TJE.[/quote]
Based on no real evidence, I thought Cleric might be the Non-Man briefly mentioned in TTT. The one that Akka remembers as there being rumors that he could do magic with two inutterals. Like Kel figured out how to do.

[Mexal]

You know, I really had my problems with this book. But the more I think about, the more I want to read the book again just for Cleric. The guy is the man. I might just read the last 70 or so pages just for a Cleric fix.

[Spring Bass]

I finally finished it after getting it today. Some thoughts and interesting notes-

1. Did anyone else notice Mimara's comment about Somandutta on page 366, about how Somandutta is the only man she trusts, and only because "he is no man"?

2. The Nameless Ones that Esmi and Kellhus's concubines gave birth were seriously screwed up - I can imagine birth defects, but [i]eight[/i] arms and no eyes? That's getting into "super weird" area, which makes me wonder if it is a side-effect of the Dunyain selective breeding process. As far as we know, they don't really understand genetics, although they understand the idea of breeding in the way you might breed dogs. Considering that the Dunyain were a small population only inter-breeding with itself for 2000 years, and then only selectively breeding among that group, perhaps they have an extremely high rate of birth defects, although they presumably eliminate any obviously defective infants. That would keep individuals with birth defects out of their breeding pool and population, although it would do nothing to solve the carriers of birth defect genes, and these could get increasingly screwed up over time.

That said, the fact that there is a custom among the Nansur royalty for killing defective newborns (drowning them in unwatered wine) suggests that birth defects were already a known issue in at least the Nansur royalty. Not really a shock when you consider that Ikurei Xerxes was quite literally a motherfucker, but interesting.

3. Why didn't Kellhus consider the possibility of sea transport of at least part of his force up to the proximity of Golgotterah? Presumably they conduct trade by sea with Zeum from the Three Seas states (meaning that they're presumably not afraid to go out on the ocean, even if they stay near the coasts), so why not extend that further, sailing up along the coast and inland into the Sea of Neleost? At the very least, they could presumably land in the proximity of Kiuniuri, and at best land on the southern shores of Agongrea, which would put them within close proximity of Golgotterah.

At the very least, Kellhus should have explored the idea by sending explorer scouts and ships - presumably he would know that with their technology, it is far cheaper and usually easier to transport goods (and frequently people) by sea and water than over-land*, where he's limited to the supply lines he can operate, and the marching limits on his army (15 miles at best). He's had at least 19 years to potentially train sailors and build new ships, so why not consider the idea? Isn't that part of his supposed strength, his ability to think outside the box?

*In our universe, this didn't change until the invention and spread of railroads, which is why in the period before them and earlier you saw emphasis on building canals in the US.

4. The Cil-Aujas scenes were pretty good, although too drawn out - he needed to consolidate some of them, or at least eliminate some repetitive scenes that didn't add to overall knowledge of the Nonmen, or move the plot along.

5. It was pretty awesome what we learned about the Nonmen in this book. Among other things -

-Murals apparently appear as "gibberish" to Nonmen. Whether this is some serious difference in mental pattern recognition with regards to two-dimensional depictions, I don't know; considering that they seem to prefer living in subterranean environments, at least in their own cities (and are extremely pale, with differentiating visible facial features being fairly subtle), perhaps this is an adaptation to that. Maybe they have really good "night vision" and depth perception in the dark, but extremely poor abilities in distinguishing between colors with regards to two-dimensional depictions. Whatever it is, it would play into the idea of the Gnosis being something so counter-intuitive and alien to normal human thought that no human magical society has developed it independently of Nonmen help in 4000 years, even when there was pressure to do so (certainly the Scarlet Spires coveted the Gnosis, and would expend time and effort trying to duplicate it).

-They probably have tried breeding with human women to have fertile offspring, with the theory being that any female children of the mix could then be bred with regular Nonmen to revitalize their race. Although Achamian doesn't seem to consider the story of that which related to the Cil-Aujas tragedy to be the most truthful, the fact that he brings up the issue of how "few human women can carry a pregnancy fathered by a Nonmen" suggests that this has been tried before (and possibly successfully, if the rumors about the Anasurimbor family descending from an Anasurimbor woman raped by a Nonman are true).

-They treated their human slaves, at least in some instances, as trash to an extent not apparent in the PoN Trilogy. Mimara at least seems to think that the "Topoi" was caused by the endless agonies and sufferings of the human slaves who lived and died in Nonmen cages and Cil-Aujas over thousands of years. Perhaps this further sheds light on why the Inchoroi didn't target Men at the same time as they were targeting Nonmen with the Womb Plague and their assaults - the Nonmen saw men as little more than animals, and the Inchoroi probably picked up similar views based off of them.

That said, it was an interesting book, if a bit heavy on the "third-person commentary".

[Decius]

[quote name='Guardsman Bass' post='1693550' date='Feb 20 2009, 12.57']I finally finished it after getting it today. Some thoughts and interesting notes-

1. Did anyone else notice Mimara's comment about Somandutta on page 366, about how Somandutta is the only man she trusts, and only because "he is no man"?[/quote]

Yes, but it did take me some time to realise that he's an Eunuch. That's why she also said that she doesn't fear him, she fears the silent ones.

[kuenjato]

[quote name='Decius' post='1693636' date='Feb 20 2009, 07.08']Yes, but it did take me some time to realise that he's an Eunuch. That's why she also said that she doesn't fear him, she fears the silent ones.[/quote]

I believe there is a joking reference among the Skin Eaters - as they prepare for the Sranc/Bashrag onslaught - that So. hasn't any balls. I concluded he was an Eunuch after that.

EDIT: What really intrigued me was the Captain's insistence that "This isn't Hell. I'd [i]recognize [/i]it."

[Spring Bass]

You know that whole point I made about sending the force by sea? Forget about all of it, except possibly landing an advance guard/sending supplies. I forgot about the possibility of sorcerors and wracu burning the ships. Shows why I shouldn't post right after finishing the book at 5 AM. :uhoh: