The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Werthead']The Orbit version is much better than the ARC version which is almost illegible. The Orbit map also has a sidebar outlining the history of the Unification Wars, which I thought was quite neat.[/quote]

I still don't like it all that much. Does anyone know of an online map somewhere, preferably something that can be printed out? Having to flip to the back of the book all the time is really annoying.

[JGP]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1662123' date='Jan 25 2009, 17.08']Because the an ancient pockmarked old man wouldn't make much of a warrior now would he ?

Besides Kelmo is essentially doing everything he possibly can to help the revolution - the assasinations, driving a wedge between his mum and uncle - and he is being spured on by these voices. There is certainly something weird going on there.

Sorweel is the only other contender really, and a very likely one because he only came into play the same time the Matron had those visions.[/quote]

[i]Ancient?[/i] Reread that passage.

As to Kelmomas, reread his introduction as well. The beetle showed him the way, imo. Ajokli. Kelmomas was surprised by this revelation. Although I'm not saying I'm right, it does make sense. Yatwer is getting involved, so too will other Deities of the Hundred.


[quote]As I said earlier, nothing in the information we have about the Dûnyain explains why Kellhus' offspring are mostly freakish mutants that kill their mothers during pregnancy.[/quote]

Ok, hold up. What book are some you guys actually reading?

[Mexal]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1662545' date='Jan 26 2009, 09.54']Ok, hold up. What book are some you guys actually reading?[/quote]

The Judging Eye.

[JGP]

Would you be so kind to direct me to the passage that said Esmenet died during childbirth then?

[Jon AS]

[quote name='quote=Azor Ahai']Would you be so kind to direct me to the passage that said Esmenet died during childbirth then?[/quote]

Esmenet didn't, but a lot of the "alternatives" she picked out for Kellhus (because of the traumatic birth of one of those many limbed mutants) did.

[Mexal]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1662558' date='Jan 26 2009, 10.05']Would you be so kind to direct me to the passage that said Esmenet died during childbirth then?[/quote]

No one ever said she did. But there are certainly passages in there where Esmi said that Kellhus was obssessed with progeny and as a result, had numerous relationships with women in order to father as many as possible. She also said that the mothers died in child birth and that the children were monstrous, similar to the monstrous one that she sired. Further, she said a lot of people died to cover up that fact.

I don't know where it is in the book that this was said as I don't have my book near me, but it was said and it's what he's referring to.

[JGP]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1662563' date='Jan 26 2009, 07.10']Esmenet didn't, but a lot of the "alternatives" she picked out for Kellhus (because of the traumatic birth of one of those many limbed mutants) did.[/quote]

Actually, [i]that[/i] part does sounds familiar. Hmn... Yet Esmenet survived. Why? I also wonder why that didn't stick out at me while I was reading it, and if this will add fuel to the theory of the Dunyain being alien as well, or products of the Inchoroi's Teckne?

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Azor Ahai']ctually, [i]that[/i] part does sounds familiar. Hmn... Yet Esmenet survived. Why? I also wonder why that didn't stick out at me while I was reading it, and if this will add fuel to the theory of the Dunyain being alien as well, or products of the Inchoroi's Teckne?[/quote]

Maybe Esmenet just got lucky. Or maybe it's divine providence. I don't think the Dûnyain are in any way products of the Inchoroi. For starters, they don't seem to be obsessed with sex (Kellhus strong desire for children aside ;)).

Having reread the story of the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars, it seems that before the Womb Plague, interbreeding between humans and Nonmen was possible. So how about the crackpot theory that the Dûnyain have some Nonmen in their ancestry?:P

[Mexal]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1662567' date='Jan 26 2009, 10.16']Actually, [i]that[/i] part does sounds familiar. Hmn... Yet Esmenet survived. Why? I also wonder why that didn't stick out at me while I was reading it, and if this will add fuel to the theory of the Dunyain being alien as well, or products of the Inchoroi's Teckne?[/quote]

I don't think all the women died. I think they were ultimately killed to silence them...the ones that survived anyway.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1662468' date='Jan 26 2009, 11.51']But the biggest differences between the cognitive abilities of children and adults is down to experience. That adults know more than children is because of things they have learned.[/quote]

No i meant that according to the Achaimans account of it the only way the Dunyain can see through faces is because they are so much more brilliant than your average human. Basically that its a completely intellect based skill. Maybe Akka is wrong or maybe its just one of those things that our disbelif is going to have to swallow.

Besides maybe they did have some training - we can see that Neuromancy (that art where the stick needles into the brain) is common enough in Kellhus' new empire that they are able to do it to the... (shit i forgot their names..you know the face changers).. out in public.

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1662468' date='Jan 26 2009, 11.51']As I said earlier, nothing in the information we have about the Dûnyain explains why Kellhus' offspring are mostly freakish mutants that kill their mothers during pregnancy.[/quote]

This is probably to do with the Outside getting involved again. I mean Esme shouldn't be so genetically different from the rest of Kellhus' wives.

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1662545' date='Jan 26 2009, 13.54'][i]Ancient?[/i] Reread that passage.[/quote]

Thats the last time i exxagerate in this thread then. The matron was only enough that she hobbled about everywhere because her knees ached, if they really have swapped places than its not the kind of condition you expect a legendary warrior to be in.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']No i meant that according to the Achaimans account of it the only way the Dunyain can see through faces is because they are so much more brilliant than your average human. Basically that its a completely intellect based skill. Maybe Akka is wrong or maybe its just one of those things that our disbelif is going to have to swallow.[/quote]

Yes, a supreme intellect is the basis for the Dûnyains' skills, but that alone isn't worth a whole lot if they are not taught how to use it. Kellhus was taught to understand how the facial muscles work by being presented with living subjects who had the skin on their faces removed. There is no hint whatsoever that Kelmomas had received a similar education. Being told about Kellhus' abilities and that they are the product of two to three decades of the most rigorous training, then being told that his kids have basically the same abilities without that training is an inconsistency.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1662587' date='Jan 26 2009, 14.44']Being told about Kellhus' abilities and that they are the product of two to three decades of the most rigorous training, then being told that his kids have basically the same abilities without that training is an inconsistency.[/quote]

I understand that but like i said Bakker left himself enough room for error;

1) Because the Kids and even Maithanet can't see nearly as far as Kellhus
2) Kellhus has introduced neuromancy to the world so later on Bakker can say the kids where in fact trained.

The only plot hole that bothered me in the books was how Sorweels father died in a "sorcererous fire" when he was wearing a Tear of God, though i later contributed that to Sorweel being young and seeing it wrong.

As well as why on earth more Sorcerers aren't bothered by the fact that they are condemning themselves to an eternity of damnation.

[kcf]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1662896' date='Jan 26 2009, 11.33']As well as why on earth more Sorcerers aren't bothered by the fact that they are condemning themselves to an eternity of damnation.[/quote]

I think this will become an increasing plot point as this series progresses. Hell, the title of the book itself implies as much.

[Chirios]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1662896' date='Jan 26 2009, 18.33']I understand that but like i said Bakker left himself enough room for error;

1) Because the Kids and even Maithanet can't see nearly as far as Kellhus
2) Kellhus has introduced neuromancy to the world so later on Bakker can say the kids where in fact trained.

The only plot hole that bothered me in the books was how Sorweels father died in a "sorcererous fire" when he was wearing a Tear of God, though i later contributed that to Sorweel being young and seeing it wrong.

As well as why on earth more Sorcerers aren't bothered by the fact that they are condemning themselves to an eternity of damnation.[/quote]

Eh? Khellus has told the world that Sorcery is no longer considered evil by the Gods. Sorcerers don't THINK they are condemning themselves to damnation. This may be false; as Mimara can still sense the evil sorcery brings through the Judging Eye.

[polishgenius]

[quote name='Chirios' post='1662967' date='Jan 26 2009, 19.34']Eh? Khellus has told the world that Sorcery is no longer considered evil by the Gods. Sorcerers don't THINK they are condemning themselves to damnation. This may be false; as Mimara can still sense the evil sorcery brings through the Judging Eye.[/quote]


...but sorcery was around for thousands of years before Kellhus came along. And there's no 'may' about it, we know that Kellhus is a filthy liar.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='polishgenius']...but sorcery was around for thousands of years before Kellhus came along. And there's no 'may' about it, we know that Kellhus is a filthy liar.[/quote]

Yeah, that was something that always bothered me. On the other hand, the only POV of a sorcerer we have is that of Achiaman, and Mandate Schoolmen obviously have a slightly different perspective than most other sorcerers.

And of course the Consult are a bunch of sorcerers who are quite clearly bothered by their damnation.

[JGP]

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1662578' date='Jan 26 2009, 07.34']The matron was only enough that she hobbled about everywhere because her knees ached, [b]if they really have swapped places[/b] than its not the kind of condition you expect a legendary warrior to be in.[/quote]~[i]emphasis mine

Here's where our interpretations of that scene diverged. Rather than a straight up vitality swap, I saw it as Yatwer honing her tools.

[Harren the Black]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1663005' date='Jan 26 2009, 15.03']Yeah, that was something that always bothered me. On the other hand, the only POV of a sorcerer we have is that of Achiaman, and Mandate Schoolmen obviously have a slightly different perspective than most other sorcerers.

And of course the Consult are a bunch of sorcerers who are quite clearly bothered by their damnation.[/quote]

But I don't think sorcerors necessarily believe in their damnation; for instance, In the beginning of TTT, Eleazaras says to Iyokus about Kellhus: "He's a true prophet of the God, Iyokus... and you and I... well, we're quite damned. Another little joke we seem to have found ourselves on the wrong side of..."

Apparently this is before Kellhus 'revealed' that sorcerors are no longer damned...

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Harren the Black']But I don't think sorcerors necessarily believe in their damnation; for instance, In the beginning of TTT, Eleazaras says to Iyokus about Kellhus: "He's a true prophet of the God, Iyokus... and you and I... well, we're quite damned. Another little joke we seem to have found ourselves on the wrong side of..."[/quote]

Without knowing the exact context of the quote I'd say it actually supports the idea that sorcerers are quite convinced of their damnation, but at least Eleazaras seems to take it with a certain grim humor.

Achiaman once thinks that at least the Mandate put it to their students as "lose your soul, gain the world" or something to that effect.

[Harren the Black]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1663103' date='Jan 26 2009, 17.22']Without knowing the exact context of the quote I'd say it actually supports the idea that sorcerers are quite convinced of their damnation, but at least Eleazaras seems to take it with a certain grim humor.[/quote]

Ah, but Eleazaras says this only after he starts to believe Kellhus is a Prophet. It seems to me that the quote proves he only begins to believe he is damned after he sees 'proof' of the existence of God, after seeing a 'true' Prophet.

It is indeed true that the Mandate Catechism is 'Though you lose your soul, you shall gain the world', but, at least in PoN, it didn't seem Achamian actually was convinced he was damned; he ponders it during TWP, especially when he is on his way to the library in Iothiah, but he doesn't know anything for sure; while, as he thinks, the Tusk couldn't be more clear, he had read many heretical works suggesting the prophets in the Tusk were simply men; "So there was room to doubt his damnation."

So this seems to suggest only sorcerors who believe in the Tusk, believe in their damnation, and why would sorcerors believe, necessarily?

Of course, the appearance of Mimara with the 'the judging eye', being able to see good and evil, seems to contradict this somewhat, although we don't really know what is up with that; is it true? IIRC Achamian says something about the Judging Eye appearing in ancient Mandate texts, so apparently people having it are not so common.

And there is of course the case of the Daimotic sorcerors, like Iyokus, who is told by one of the Ciphrang he summons in TWP:"Thou art damned! Dost thou not recognize he who shall keepeth thee for Eternity?', so for them there doesn't seem to be much doubt that they are damned, by the demons they summon.