The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Kalbear]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1696881' date='Feb 23 2009, 13.13']One of my biggest questions that I don't think was brought up here is regarding Maithanet. Kelmomas says something to Esmi about how Maithanet looks at her. First, with Kelmomas it could always be nothing but an attempt at manipulation but even if it is that, is there something else to it? Does Maithanat want Esmi? Does he not trust her? Why does Kelm point this out?[/quote]Because he wants to destroy Maithanet. It's pretty clear he finds him a threat. It's a wedge driven into Esmi's doubts, the same way he drove out Mimara (or helped).

[quote]I agree with Calibander and others about the end of Cil-Aujas...very confused about what all happened there. Did the dead non-man king possess Cleric for a while? Did they turn into some great black cloud? I totally missed what happened.[/quote]Dunno if this helps, but here's another clue from the re-reading: Cleric's statement right before entering the Gate:
""Where are you!' he bellowed - so violently even the hardest of the skin eaters started. '[b]The Gate unguarded[/b]? And with the world grown so dark? This is an outrage! Outrage!'
Despite his stature, he seemed a mere sliver, frail and warm-blooded, before the great maw of black about him. Only the depth of his sorcerous Mark bespoke his might.
'Cuncari!' he boomed, growing frantic. "Jiss! Cuncari!'
The captain strode to him, clapped a hand on his shoulder.
'They're dead you fool. Ancient dead'. ...

'Yes', he said, closing lashless eyelids. His pupils seemed as big as coins when he opened them, black with hooks of reflected silver. 'Yes', he fairly cried, laughing now.
"They are dead'
"

This parallels well with the nonman king and Cleric's reaction. It also I think will hook into what the Judging eye is and what the Chorae were, and the 'who guards' question. It's clear that Mimara did not destroy the ghost (to me) since Cleric's alive; I think she simply answered the question. Perhaps the judging eye and the chorae are a gate of some kind between the world and the Outside - and Mimara with the eye is one of the few that can actually guard it.

[quote]Some interesting theories on who Kelmomas is...I honestly think he's just a messed up little kid. What the fuck was up with "Tweet tweet" right before killing Saranchasa or whatever her name was? The voice is the more curiuos question. I think most likely it's just the inner-monologue of our little psychopath but outside manipulations sure seem possible.[/quote]It's a reference to the bird he stabs earlier and throughout that chapter.

[quote]I thought (bear with me Kalbear) that Akka's bonestaff smackdown on Mimara was awesome. Not because I enjoyed the image of her getting hit. But for what it suggests on how done with society Akka was feeling at the time.[/quote]The casual violence and sexism that Akka throws around is one of the more interesting parts of it. As is his capricious cruelty. It makes Akka a seriously interesting and horrible character, and I like him more that he's so much less sympathetic.

He's also a huge tool, and it's a fun game to count up how many times he thinks about coincidence and totally misses that he's being manipulated so badly.

[quote]If he is able to mask himself from Kellhus things could get very interesting.[/quote]I think that's the obvious implication. Whether or not it's true, I don't know. But it seems that Porsparian thinks that's what happened.

[Kalbear]

Cleric's in the prologue though. " A second man, his face concealed by a black cowl, sat three paces behind him, leaning forward as though straining to hear something in the water's ambient rush".

But yeah, kayutas is a good choice. The Captain switches to Ainoni when talking with the Traveler with a heartbeat, and there aren't that many people that can deal with that without any issue. It's either one of Kellhus' spawn or someone that we know from the first book, given how important the Veteran status is.

Now I want to go back and see whether there were any mentions of Kayutas having returned from some far-off mission.

[Jacen]

Damn you Bakker. TJE creates more questions than it answers! Forgive my monstrous wall o’ text.

So, I’d give it a seven out of ten. Though, I do think the [i]Darkness that Comes Before [/i]was better as a start up book, and like others have said- I do wish the book was a bit longer, with some more plot progression. Oh well.

I’ll start with an issue that has bothered me for awhile about Bakkerland, the Consult/Inchoroi tag team and their intentions.

-Why is the Consult/Inchoroi so concerned with their damnation if they have figured out the secret of immortality? They can’t die of old age, so what power does Hell have over them? Also, due to this factor (the fact that they can only die if someone kills them) they should be the ultimate isolationists. Instead they seem to actively go out of their way to piss powerful nations off and get them to try to kill them off. Second, how many people would they have to kill off to close the world to the Outside? Also, doesn’t that goal seem contradictory to their natures? They like to rape and murder, what are they gonna do when the world is empty?

Other random points:

-Lord Kosoter was awesome. Talk about a man hardened by war. I’d really like to know what Kellhus sees in his face when he looks upon him. And did Kosoter accompany Kellhus on his briefly mentioned expeditions to Hell? And WHY is Kellhus doing that stuff anyway?

-The Kelmomas/Esmenet plotline was kinda weak in comparison to the other two. Would have liked to see more politicking and maneuvers, instead it was all a day in the life of Psycho Boy. Though, it was sad to see that Esmenet finally knows the real deal on Kellhus’ true self. It must be hell to have a husband and children that have absolutely no love or emotional attachment to her. The only one that loves is a murderous freak. Not sure who/what Kelmomas is hearing, but I don’t think it’s the Consult. More on that later.

-Sorweel sections had too little Great Ordeal, too much Sorweel agonizing over his situation. And we were back to the old “Kellhus is amazing OMG!” sagas of old. Also, Sorweel’s father was an absolute fool and he should have taken a page from Torrhen Stark and known when to fold ‘em. Still, I enjoyed the brief little tidbits on the march, and background info on Zeum. Definitely pick up a feeling of Napoleon’s Grand Armee trip to Moscow. I’d be very surprised if Sorweel is the White Luck Warrior. It seems pretty clear to me the WLW is the guy that Psatma Nannaferi was banging in that fucked up/bizarre ritual. That means he is not a known character/Sorweel because that fucked up bizarre ritual was going on in Iothiah. Also curious as to whether Kellhus was blinded to his true thoughts or was just playing around.

-Is Iyokus still alive? I would have liked to see him. Also kind of let down that Proyas didn’t get a POV.

-The Gods aspect of Bakkerworld intrigues and confuses me. So, all these hundred gods are all aspects of one God? And this God is both a part of, and apart from human beings? Are these Gods the Gods of the Nonmen as well? Also, these various factions of the God can feud against each other? Why do they want to bring Kellhus down? Do all of them want this?

-Also enjoyed the fact that Bakker makes it quite clear the God is not necessarily a very open-minded or truly fair & nice God. Sorcery for instance. Don’t see why that should automatically earn one a place in Hell, but it’s clear that it does, no exceptions. (I did enjoy the convo Sorweel had with the Mandati sorcerer. “He saved me”. Now I can see how the Mandate would so completely bow down to Kellhus’ will.) Same goes for women. The God thinks that men are better, and so they are. This may lead to an interesting path…what happens when the False Prophet is actually more fair and compassionate than the real, actual Gods?

- Seriously, how freaking cool are the Nonmen? It’s like Bakker took the best parts about Tolkien Elves and Dwarves, and then made them absolute psychos and emotional wrecks to seal the deal. Gotta love it. And I have to say….they disgust me, in a way.. I guess not for what they did to the Emwama but more so for their response to what the Inchoroi did to them. Okay, your women are gone and you are immortal, but you can’t remember all this life-time. So they decide to inflict misery on the world so they can have something to remember. They would have been, and the world would have been, much better if they just committed suicide.

- The Akka and Cil-Aujas chapters were the best. Though I have to say, shame on Akka for having sex with Mimara. I can see why he’d do it in that situation, but seriously that wasn’t a noble move on his part. She isn’t Esmenet. The Cil-Aujas adventure was incredible, though at times it made me wonder what the difference is between a homage and a total rip-off :P

-The Cil-Aujas adventure ended weakly though. If Bakker was going for maximum confusion and abstractness, he succeeded brilliantly. Also, I really hope Akka lives until the end for some sort of showdown with Kellhus. Please don’t have him die an old man at random, before the end.

-Cleric, Incariol, whatever is awesome. And I’m pretty sure he is Mekeretrig. And I hope he is, because the convos between him and Akka would be incredible to read. Also, I think Mek is a free agent again and has nothing to do with the Consult at this time…

-And speaking of which, what is the Consult up to? I tend to think we did not see them at work in this book. I read the possible Gods at work instances as the real deal…Plus, those movements seemed very subtle. In the first trilogy, it seemed like whenever the Consult tried to out-wit Kellhus, he dominated them and was always three steps ahead of them. That leads me to believe those aren’t their actions. Though maybe they learned from their mistakes? Also, I’d love to meet the human elements of the Consult. Sheonanra (sp?) in particular.

-[b]Finally[/b], Bakker seemed to simultaneously increase and decrease his tendency toward intellectual wankery. I wish he didn’t feel the need to cap off every paragraph with some deep observation on the nature of the world or humanity :P

Whew…..

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1697618' date='Feb 24 2009, 17.15']-Is Iyokus still alive? I would have liked to see him. Also kind of let down that Proyas didn’t get a POV.[/quote]

I think he is, during one of the Great Ordeal's big council sessions, it mentions the blind Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, with pale, almost translucent skin. Got to be Iyokus.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1697618' date='Feb 24 2009, 17.15']-Lord Kosoter was awesome. Talk about a man hardened by war. I’d really like to know what Kellhus sees in his face when he looks upon him. And did Kosoter accompany Kellhus on his briefly mentioned expeditions to Hell?[/quote]

I really like this idea. Kosoter literally went to hell, and it messed him up bad enough that he left Imperial service and became a scalp-hunter.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

Disclaimer - I have 3 chapters to go in the book, but...

Its clear in the first Condia chapter that Kayutas can read Sorweel's face, so why couldn't Kellhus? And even if Kellhus couldn't read Sorweel's face, why would it matter with Kayutas around?

Re: Kelmomas, I believe he is a Consult construct of some sort, as are possibly all of Esmenet's post Inchoroi coitus offspring. Which could explain the 8 armed no eyed offspring as well as all the insanity, and of course, Kelmomas' violent inner voice.

[Galactus]

[quote]Its clear in the first Condia chapter that Kayutas can read Sorweel's face, so why couldn't Kellhus?[/quote]

First instinct: Yatwer protects him specifically from Kellhus.

Other possibility: Kayutas is still more "human" than Kellhus and this somehow lets him "in".

[Jacen]

[quote name='Brady' post='1697671' date='Feb 24 2009, 02.19']I really like this idea. Kosoter literally went to hell, and it messed him up bad enough that he left Imperial service and became a scalp-hunter.[/quote]

Yes, I took his line about "This isn't Hell-I'd remember it" to literally mean he had been there. It explains why he is such a fucking hardcase.

[lokisnow]

Bought this over the weekend and read the what has come before and through chapter three (stayed up til 4am last night, ugh. shouldn't start reading at 2:30).

It's brilliant, already I'm liking it a whole lot more than any of the first three books, due, I think, to the writing style mainly, which seems to have improved.

The What Has Come before was an awesome read. I finally feel like I could recommend the series to other readers because of that. For instance take the first two third/half of it before it covers the events of the Prince of Nothing trilogy, give it to a new reader to read and then hand them the Darkness that Comes Before, a much easier sell that way, imo.

[.H.]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1698421' date='Feb 24 2009, 16.12']I was wondering if it was just a reference to the plains of Mengedda. Since he is a veteren he could have been at that battle. But that would really be just another topos like Cil-Aujas and maybe that means he's talking about true Hell and something way more hardcore than even Mengedda.[/quote]

My guess is that he is referring to something the Consult did to him, just after the prologue, to compel him to bring Akka to Sauglish.

It only makes sense that he isn't doing it for the booty. As knowledgeable as he is, he must know that it's a one way trip, yet he accepted it with little resistance. There must be something more behind his motive to suicide into the Far North.

It makes perfect sense, the Consult must have an inkling what is inside the coffers, but must not be able to open it themselves. It's a lot easier to draw Akka to it, have him open it, then kill him.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='.H.']It only makes sense that he isn't doing it for the booty. As knowledgeable as he is, he must know that it's a one way trip, yet he accepted it with little resistance.[/quote]

To me it seemed clear that he has a deathwish, but obviously has ruled out active suicide.

[quote name='Triskele']Maybe that is his actual motive and maybe he'll succeed but then become a new kind of tyrant himself?[/quote]

[i]Become[/i] a tyrant? Isn't that pretty much what he is now?:P

[.H.]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1698614' date='Feb 24 2009, 18.16']To me it seemed clear that he has a deathwish, but obviously has ruled out active suicide.[/quote]

What i really see is that he appears to know he's not going to die, [i]yet[/i]. Or at least that's how he acts. Through bravado or something more is the real question though. My bet is on something far more.

[Calibandar]

Couple of observations, replies to suggestions:

One the identity of the traveller in the prologue.

My first thought is still The Consult despite Kalbear's theory on page 3. At the very end of The Warrior Prophet we have a vey heavy scene with Aengalas of the Werigda clan with The Inchoroi, whose constant question is "Who are the Dunyain".

The Consult has been made aware of the Dunyain but we have seen no link between the two, or a sign that the Consult is trying to find the Dunyain, since then. This might be our first new hint. The traveller says they find everyone. Sure this can apply to an Imperial Tracker, but also to the agents of the Consult.

Could the traveller be an agent of Kellhus? Of course. Kellhus has had time to think, more than his intellect probably requires. He'll have mapped out several strategies. That Mimara is somehow not found by the Imperial trackers through weeks ( or months?) of wandering through the wild in search of Achamian might be seen as suspicous. But the question remains, why would Kellhus want Achamian to find Ishual? If he wanted the aid of the Dunyain, he would have tried to enlist it himself. If they are at all willing to intercede beyond their monastery that is. Would Kellhus have reasons for the Dunyain to become involved, that would do him more harm than good.

If you're the big maned lion in a cage with 6 female lions, do you want to help someone find the other big maned lions so they can come and join the fun? Or do you want to maintain the status quo you have established in which Men are like children to the Anasurimbor?

Also, can we really think Mimara was sent away by Kellhus? Didn't Kelmomas give himself credit for chasing her away?

I'm all agreeing on how Achamian is clearly Kellhus' modern day Seswatha, and that the old wizard hasd an important role to fulfill in the upcoming struggle. Not convinced it is Kellhus who set him on this path though.

[b]Incariol[/b]

I actually don't want it to be Mekeritrig. It seems to me that it would be more interesting if he were a new character thrown into the mix. Then again we have seen very little of Mekeritrig indeed and it is clearly hinted that this Incariol must have a different identity by Achamian. We also learn for sure he is a traitor. Sort of Nin'Janin, the origianl traitor of the Nonmen who betrayed Cujara Cinmoi himself, I can only magine Incariol is Mekeritrig, or he is a wholly new character.

Also, that Mekeritrig is first seen here as on the side of the Consult does not need to mean anything. They may have fallen out. Ther are Nonmen, they go where the deepest emotions and tragedy can be found. Maybe Mek thought that would be with the Scalpoi.

But again, I think I'd like it if there were more powerful Nonmen characters about than to have the secone one we meet be the same person as the first one we met. We do know there are a few thousand Nonmen left, most in the still inhabited capital of Ishterebinth. Furthermore, despite Mimara saying explicity that Nonmen look so much alike, to the point of lookinbg exactly alike, you'd still think that Achamian, having seen Mek more than once in his dreams, would recognize him.

Also I like the idea of Mek continuing to be a powerful opponent of Kellhus', who he will meet at the end of his journey much as he met him at ther very start of it. Poetic symmetry.

[b]Kellhus [/b]

I'm reading a few comments here to the extent that Kellhus himself made a major mistake, and that he is losing control of the whole scheme somewhat. Just wanted to say that nothing in the text gave me that feeling whatsoever, except for the final scene with Sorweel which may well be a ruse, as Sorweel himself speculates. And other than that, Kellhus looks totally in control to me. Thousands of warriors merged into one single entity, on his way to defeating the Consult and Mog Pharau. Setbacks may well follow, but he doesn't look as if he's broken a sweat sofar.

Now, I understand that now that Kellhus is the Authority in the world of Men, upstarts will come and try t displace him. But he seems to perfectly aware of this, as witnessed among other things in his talk to Esmenet, and is above all things keeping his eye on the ball: Defeat the Consult above all else.

As for what the Hundred Gods can do, and if we will see more representatives than just the Yatwerians, that's wait and see. And if the Dunyain will be found, than taht is another huge factor into the midst. But we're not there yet, and Kellhus' feathers look unruffled sofar.

As for the Demons that he keeps wearing. Cool to see those trophies, and the fact that they are actually still alive, or conscious. I wonder if he actually travelled to the Outside to defeat them or if he beat them in Earwa because someone summoned them.

I think Kellhus, prodigious talent that he is, even amongst the Dunyain according to Scott, has a keen eye for what he still has to learn. When he came from the monastery he learned much but mostly the revelation of sorcery. He knew that was an unknownn quantity for him and then proceeded to learn it, surpasssing everyone else with his natural ability.

So what is unknown to him now? The Consult Majors, for one. The nature and secrets of the No-God. What else would he know is a threat or unknown quantity to him?

Totally different note: did anyone else get the Canadian trade paperback from Penguin and found it disappointing that it is so different in style and feel from the wonderul trades from the trilogy?

Guardsman Bass

[quote]1. Did anyone else notice Mimara's comment about Somandutta on page 366, about how Somandutta is the only man she trusts, and only because "he is no man"?[/quote]

Yeah I noted that. But afterwards she makes no more mention if it, continues to refer to him as a he and remarks more than once on his physical strength. I supposed he was a eunuch.

[quote]. The Nameless Ones that Esmi and Kellhus's concubines gave birth were seriously screwed up - I can imagine birth defects, but eight arms and no eyes? That's getting into "super weird" area, which makes me wonder if it is a side-effect of the Dunyain selective breeding process[/quote]

Dunyain genetics is one. The Anasurimbor line itself is another. But consider also this:

Throughout the books there is this great ambiguity about what Kellus is. The God of Gods, and avatar of the God, a real Demon from the Outside or the Dunyain monk on the rise we have seen him as. The enormous defects of the children Kellhus bears to his concubines might be an indication that he is not human but indeed a demon. Just a thought. He may really be otherwordly. In any case it has to do with normal human women not being strong enough to carry his seed. Is this because he is an Anasurimbor, a Dunyain, or a Demon? I suppose Dunyain is the most likely answer here. Or maybe it is Anasurimbor blood, because their bloodline descends from Nonmen, and we have just seen in TJE that that Nonmen tried to breed with human concubines after the Womb Plague administered by the Inchoroi killed their women, and this attempt failed.

[b]White Luck Warrior[/b]
Kalbear had made me think. Maybe it's not Sorweel after all and I should place more value in the strange rituals chapters with Psatma.

BoG

[quote]Why Mimara thinks of herslef as an Anasurimbor? Does she consider herself adopted child of Kellhus? Or is it something more?[/quote]

I really thought this was nothing more than Mimara considering herself part of the Anasurimbor house, even though Kellhus is not her father. She has no real grudge against Kellhus as I recall, and thus no reason to want to renounce him.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1698542' date='Feb 24 2009, 17.39']I like that theory. It seems like the traveler from the prologue could either be an agent from Kellhus or from the Consult.[/quote]
My wacko theory is that the Traveller is Cnauir. Somehow he is alive and now an agent of the Consult.

He understands the Dunyain. Moreso then most people in the entire world. So they send him down to go on a little trip to the Coffers, and eventually, Ishual.

ETA;

And yeah, I realize that it doesn't fit with the Ainoni thing ... *Consult tekne magic handwave*

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1698740' date='Feb 24 2009, 20.16']What Ainoni thing? Kosoter is the Ainoni I think. I don't think there is any reference to the traveler.[/quote]
Kosoter talks to the Traveler in Ainoni. So the Traveler must be able to speak / understand Ainoni .... right?

[Kalbear]

Yep. Kosoter switches to Ainoni, and the Traveler responds. So Cnaiur - who would have to be close to Akka's age - somehow learns to speak elegantly, not be batshit crazy, and speak Ainoni during this whole time.

[Jacen]

Kayutas is a possibility. I'd buy that over it being the Consult or the Ishual Dunyain. But why does Kellhus want Akka to go to Ishual?

Another thing on Incariol- one of the things that made me think he is Mekeretrig is the detail that Bakker dropped that to humans the Nonmen all look alike. We'd never heard that particular detail before, so why now? Could it be because Bakker needed to explain away why Akka didn't recognize him from the Dreams? Seemed kinda convienient ;)

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1698792' date='Feb 25 2009, 13.13']Kayutas is a possibility. I'd buy that over it being the Consult or the Ishual Dunyain. But why does Kellhus want Akka to go to Ishual?[/quote]

That's one of the things I found maddening (in a good way) about TJE. We can only guess at Kellhus' motives in the absence of any POV. If we assume Akka's quest is the result of Kellhus' manipulations, per Kal's theory, then maybe he isn't aiming Akka at Ishual? Maybe it's the Coffers that are important? It does seem awful convenient that Akka's fake cover story suddenly becomes a vital part of his quest, thanks to those oh-so-handy Dreams.

[Jacen]

Triskele:

I'm very sure it's never been mentioned before that the Nonmen all look alike. That was completely new to me. Fused teeth means theres no gaps in their teeth. Just picture your teeth without lines seperating them.

I guess Kell ultimately wants Achamian to play errandboy and find the Heron Spear for him. How Ishual would lead to that, I don't know.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1698655' date='Feb 24 2009, 17.54'][b]Incariol[/b]

I actually don't want it to be Mekeritrig. It seems to me that it would be more interesting if he were a new character thrown into the mix. Then again we have seen very little of Mekeritrig indeed and it is clearly hinted that this Incariol must have a different identity by Achamian. We also learn for sure he is a traitor. Sort of Nin'Janin, the origianl traitor of the Nonmen who betrayed Cujara Cinmoi himself, I can only magine Incariol is Mekeritrig, or he is a wholly new character.

Also, that Mekeritrig is first seen here as on the side of the Consult does not need to mean anything. They may have fallen out. Ther are Nonmen, they go where the deepest emotions and tragedy can be found. Maybe Mek thought that would be with the Scalpoi.

But again, I think I'd like it if there were more powerful Nonmen characters about than to have the secone one we meet be the same person as the first one we met. We do know there are a few thousand Nonmen left, most in the still inhabited capital of Ishterebinth. Furthermore, despite Mimara saying explicity that Nonmen look so much alike, to the point of lookinbg exactly alike, you'd still think that Achamian, having seen Mek more than once in his dreams, would recognize him.

Also I like the idea of Mek continuing to be a powerful opponent of Kellhus', who he will meet at the end of his journey much as he met him at ther very start of it. Poetic symmetry.[/quote]


I tend to agree that Incariol is a new character and not Mekeretrig...

Somewhere in the glossaries it says while there are several thousand nonmen in the world, mostly in Ishterebinth, there are several hundred erratics roaming around...

Incariol has such... potential... to expand on the Nonman story... I predict that we will see betrayal out of him, but I do not think it will be a simple betrayal of Akka... It is going to involve layers upon layers of betrayal extending back through the millenia.

I still think he could be an exiled nonman Prince of Viri/son of Nin Jan'jin... Though we do not necessarily know what the pattern of inheritance of kingship is among the nonmen, I feel that following conquest of Viri, Cujara Cinmoi would not have suffered a potential claimant to the throne and instigant to revolt against the rule of Siol to remain in the Viri mansion... Hence the need for taking refuge in another mansion - Cil Aujas...

I totally hope Incariol and Mek have it out in a slug fest...