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The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker


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Maith can definitely spot them. So can Theliopia. And Inriasfgasfsagh. I suspect that any of Kell's kids could spot them (Kelmomas probably can too) but Kellhus wasn't sure yet.

Or Kellhus knows he's a fucking psycho and would lie about it even if he did spot one.

The Mimara appearing in the dream...it's tough. Akka says that sometimes the current bleeds into the old back in PoN. At the same time, when we've actually seen this sort of thing is when another Mandate sorcerer was talking to that person. Odd coincidence, that.

Similarly, there's a whole sequence where Akka dreams of Sauglish and the burning of the Coffers, but it's not through Seswatha's eyes. And he keeps wondering where Seswatha was. This was unlike most of his other dreams; he hadn't dreamt where Seswatha wasn't the viewpoint.

Based on those things and the fate angle that Akka keeps seeing, I think he's clearly being manipulated. The question is - by who? The Consult doesn't know (or didn't know) how to find Ishual. They didn't know Ishual existed. That's at best a Mandate thing, or maybe an Akka thing. Even if the Consult did know that Ishual existed, why would they need Akka to go to the Coffers? They still have gnostic sorcerers, and they effectively control all of Sauglish's area. And unlike Akka, they'll have a very good idea of where Sauglish is. There's no need for them to use Akka to go there at all. How could they seed his dreams with information about Ishual's location being in the Coffers? How would they even know that Ishual was connected to the Anasurimbor?

That's information that only the Dunyain or the Anasurimbors know, or should know. Which means it's Dunyain or Mandate.

I guess it just doesn't seem as likely that Akka's being manipulated by the Consult to me.
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The Consult doesn't know the word Ishual, AFAWK, but they are clearly looking for who/what the Dunyain are - the same as Akka is. It would make sense for them to be a long for the ride.

I think someone is manipulating all the Mandati towards Sauglish - or at least their efforts to manipulate Akka to Sauglish are affecting all the Mandati - even Eskeles mentioned "the library @ Sauglish again" when talking to Sorweel about his dreams.
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[quote]The Consult doesn't know the word Ishual, AFAWK, but they are clearly looking for who/what the Dunyain are - the same as Akka is.[/quote]Right - but how would the Consult know to manipulate the Skin Eaters? How could they manipulate Akka into going to the Coffers to find Ishual - and why would they, since they effectively own the Coffers right now and know exactly where they are?

Why would a bunch of Consult creations [i]with Chorae[/i] be used to almost kill Akka if he's being helped by them? I mean, the only reason that the group survived at all was because of a fluke of Mimara. If they were being manipulated by a skin-spy, wouldn't they want to avoid most of the other Consult creations? Wouldn't the skin spies and the Inchoroi have a way of calling the sranc to bay? If that's the Consult's plan it's a spectacularly dumb one that only happens to work because of really bizarre luck.

Put it this way: how does a skin-spy in the Skin Eaters make sense? How does the Consult helping Akka find Ishual make sense if the Consult's creations are actively trying to kill him? How would the Consult know that in order to make Akka actually go out and do something, [i]they'd have to send Mimara to him?[/i]

I mean, the traveler meeting with the Skin Eaters only makes sense if the Consult knows Akka's going to talk to them, and the only reason Akka went to talk to them was because Mimara was sent to see him. Now, you could say that Kelmomas is Consult manipulated as well and the Consult knew that sending Mimara would get Akka off his ass, but that doesn't sound a lot like the kind of manipulation the Consult does, typically. To me, that sounds like a probability trance type of effect.

Mostly, I just don't get how the Consult would send Akka on a mission where it's very likely he'd be eaten by Consult constructs who clearly were pretty rich by Consult standards. These weren't rank and file troops; these were Sranc with Chorae and Bashrag.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1701093' date='Feb 26 2009, 13.10']Right - but how would the Consult know to manipulate the Skin Eaters? How could they manipulate Akka into going to the Coffers to find Ishual - and why would they, since they effectively own the Coffers right now and know exactly where they are?

Why would a bunch of Consult creations [i]with Chorae[/i] be used to almost kill Akka if he's being helped by them? I mean, the only reason that the group survived at all was because of a fluke of Mimara. If they were being manipulated by a skin-spy, wouldn't they want to avoid most of the other Consult creations? Wouldn't the skin spies and the Inchoroi have a way of calling the sranc to bay? If that's the Consult's plan it's a spectacularly dumb one that only happens to work because of really bizarre luck.

Put it this way: how does a skin-spy in the Skin Eaters make sense? How does the Consult helping Akka find Ishual make sense if the Consult's creations are actively trying to kill him? How would the Consult know that in order to make Akka actually go out and do something, [i]they'd have to send Mimara to him?[/i]

I mean, the traveler meeting with the Skin Eaters only makes sense if the Consult knows Akka's going to talk to them, and the only reason Akka went to talk to them was because Mimara was sent to see him. Now, you could say that Kelmomas is Consult manipulated as well and the Consult knew that sending Mimara would get Akka off his ass, but that doesn't sound a lot like the kind of manipulation the Consult does, typically. To me, that sounds like a probability trance type of effect.

Mostly, I just don't get how the Consult would send Akka on a mission where it's very likely he'd be eaten by Consult constructs who clearly were pretty rich by Consult standards. These weren't rank and file troops; these were Sranc with Chorae and Bashrag.[/quote]

I think Kellhus is manipulating everyone to Sauglish through interfering with the Mandati dreams.

It seems to me its equally as likely that either Kellhus or the Consult reason that Akka will end up with the Skin Eaters.

The Consult spy is just along with Akka and the Skin Eaters for the ride which they hope will end with info about the Dunyain.

I was assuming that the Sranc and Bashrags were not soley in Cil-Aujus to kill Akka. I figured they used Cil-Aujus the way the orcs and Balrog used Moria - as a hiding place on the margin between civilization and wilderness and Akka just happend to stumble into their lair. Meanwhile, the skin spy has strict instructions not to blow his cover under any circumstances.
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You know one of the things I liked about TJE was little stuff that stood out to me that I had not expected. Stuff that I hadn't thought about before and which just adds to the flavour of the story.

I'll name a few:

* Maithanet. Somehow he seemed a much more sympathetic and honest character to me this time through. The descriptions of him continue to be of one very powerful individual, strong in physique, youthful and with an overwhelming voice. Bit of a shame we saw little of him as the story went on but anyway, I was really interested in him in this book. He seems to become a sort of hero to Esmenet, and she will need him if the Yatwer Cult becomes stronger, plus he is the one who suspects Kelmomas' true nature.

* I believe it was in an interview where Bakker described what a world in which values are objective would be like, and what if the world actually conformed to beliefs and events. In this regard, we see in the PoN trilogy how the Earth at the Mengedda plains literally throws up the bones of the slaughtered because the massacre was too great to contain. I thought we saw another example of this in The Judging Eye, twice in fact. One is when Kellhus has translocated to Momemn and we are told that in his anger the surroundings seemed to literally darken and become shadowy. Now, this may just have been a trick of magic on Kellhus part, but maybe not. But the second example is at the start of the book when there is a description of the Sun literally accompanying Kellhus and the Great Ordeal. There is talk about how the North is so bleak and cold, and that the Sun is literally folowing Kellhus' path wherever he went. I thought that was a nice touch.

* I loved the little statements Incariol made before the statue of Cujara Cinmoi. First he refers to Cujara as the one whose hand "[i]hath slain thousands"[/i] and then he says" [i]he whose voice hath cracked mountains!"[/i]. I thought that was just this very cool image, the immense majesty of the greatest Nonman ever, speaking words of sorcery and in doing so literally cracking mountains. Awesome.

* One final example. Whenever Moenghus is described it is clear he is Cnaiur's son. Loved the description of him eyeing Sorweel with cold blue eyes, and Moenghus looking as though he "[i]fairly bristled with weaponry[/i]".
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[quote name='Calibandar' post='1701209' date='Feb 26 2009, 14.35']I loved the little statements Incariol made before the statue of Cujara Cinmoi. First he refers to Cujara as the one whose hand "[i]hath slain thousands"[/i] and then he says" [i]he whose voice hath cracked mountains!"[/i]. I thought that was just this very cool image, the immense majesty of the greatest Nonman ever, speaking words of sorcery and in doing so literally cracking mountains. Awesome.[/quote]

I got the impression that Incariol wasn't actually as awed by Cu'jara Cinmoi as history might be... "Where is your judgement now?"

As Akka states before the wolf gate, the Nonmen were obsessed with the passage of time, and the process of BECOMING... The PROCESS of changing, evolving, and as Cleric points out in his sermon on the darkness, the process of transcending oblivion, and becoming closer to god... What a horrible act of revenge by the Inchoroi, to rob the Cunuroi of their ability to BECOME. Like formaldehyde, forever fixing the tissue of their bodies, minds, and souls in a state perpetually UNABLE to BECOME again...

Cleric obviously grasps the implications in this. What a horrible fate to be condemened - Damnation via blasphemous sorcery, AND unable to approach god. On first glance, it is easy to blame the Inchoroi. I think the wiser among the Nonmen Ishroi blame the pride and greed of Cu'jara Cinmoi. It was his wish to be physically young and 'immortal' with death banished from the halls of his people that brought on the temporary peace with the Inchoroi and the subsequent Womb-plague. And his vengeance that brought about the battle which, as Incariol states, broke the back of the remaining Lastborn Nonmen.

Incariol obviously knew the lord of Siol... And places the blame for the plight of their race at his feet alone. While paying homage to his statue is one thing... I feel asking, "Where is your judgement now," implies a certain contempt, or at least a disillusionment with the 'Splendour' of Cujo's soul... I doubt Cleric would agree that Cujo was the greatest Nonman ever...
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[quote name='Calibandar' post='1700690' date='Feb 26 2009, 21.25']Was that mentioned, that Kayutas can't see skin spies? I don't have the book with me now, I recall he mentions he does not quite have his father's gifts of insight; I recall that he mentions he is not of The Few. But I don't recall that cannot see skin spies. I thought he could, as could Serwa, because they are born of a Dunyain Anasurimbor and have had Dunyain training to boot.[/quote]

I'll see if I can find the quote I'm remembering. IIRC it was Kelmomas reflecting that only his father and Thelioppe can fully detect skin-spies.
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Maithanet can see them. He's the one that exposes Simas (Akkas Old teacher) to the Mandate, remember?

What I found curious is that there is a clear hint that Kellhus is starting to not trust Maith, by what he says to Esemenet.
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We 100% know that Maith can. He does so at the end of TTT and even triggers their 'release' mode. This isn't at all up for debate.

I think the relevant passage was talking about who could see them that was currently around the palace. So Kayutas and Serwa aren't going to count, and gibbering masturbator isn't going to be helpful (though he apparently could see them, IIRC - it just wasn't useful to have him do so while spraying cum on everyone).

So for those of you who think the Traveler was a Consult spy - how do you figure that the Consult would know that Akka would go to them? Did the Consult send Mimara, believing that she would trigger Akka into inaction after 20 years? Does that make sense?
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I think Kalbear has convinced me. It's not the Consult. It's Kellhus and his kids setting up Akka or....a second possibility (though very unlikely) the Ishual Dunyain. Why either one of them wants him doing this stuff, I have no idea.

And now...for some crazy predictions that won't happen. I just feel like putting this out there-

In the first three books, the Holy War very closely followed the First Crusade in our world. Do any reading about it and you'll be struck how closely Bakker followed the actual history.

Now, imagine Bakker follows that same template with the Ordeal, only now he goes with Napoleon's Russian campaign. So far the example seems to hold..

Napoleon lead a huge army in Russia, full of former enemies- now vassals, the whole thing pretty much held together by the force his personality and a common goal. The first major battle was at Smolensk (Read: Sakarpus) which Napoleon easily won and took the city (As did Kellhus). After that, the Russians pretty much retreated from then on, scorching the earth behind them and refusing to give battle. That seems like what the Sranc are doing- retreating. Both armies had a hell of a lot of ground to cover to reach their destinations- Moscow and Golgoterrath.

If the historical parallel holds, the Consult will force Kellhus' army to march all the way to Golgotterath without any major battles. They will probably raid and harass his army, in particular his supply lines, but beyond that- nothing. Once he is close to Golgotterath, with a whittled down army, they will give battle. It will be a major, bloody battle (ala Borodino), yet Kellhus in the end will win out. The Consult army retreats. The way to Golgoterrath is open.

So, then Kellhus takes Golgoterrath with relative ease after the major battle, but to his surprise he finds it is [i]mostly empty[/i]. They discover all sorts of bizarre shit in the Ark, but ultimately they can't do anything. Even Kell cannot destroy the arc. His huge army is now marooned in an empty fortress (maybe the Consult even starts up some fires), thousands of miles from succor.

Now what? They have to retreat, they cannot find the Consult or any signs of the No God. The long march begins back to the Three seas. His army is continually harrassed by Sranc, and the fact that they are running out of food becomes deadly. There is nothing to scrounge from the countryside, and worst of all- winter is coming with a fury.

End result: Kellhus is forced to flee from his own army, while it completely disintegrates behind him. Barely any of the low level grunts survive the trek.

Now, that stuff probably won't happen, but it would be interesting to see- Kellhus' great army destroyed and no discernable progress to show for it all.

That would put them all up shit creek when the Consult comes back.
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I'll go one step further, Jacen - I think that this is Kellhus' plan. I think he wants the Great Ordeal to ultimately fail, or at least expects that it will.

I don't know why yet - perhaps he wants to shut the Outside out, perhaps it's in a bid to become a God or fight the existing ones, perhaps as I've said before the Ordeal is essentially one giant scapegoat or stalking horse, designed to make his enemies known. But it seems odd that he has so much...urgency about this. There's no sign that the Consult is close to finishing the No-God or even had been there. There's no sign that the sranc are mounting, and humans seem to be doing a better job reclaiming the wilderness. Kellhus isn't old, and he'll have quite a few years left where he'll still be able to run things. Why do they need to do this all in one march? Why have an army travel 2000 miles in half a year so that they can face their enemy in the middle of winter? Just seems odd.
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I have no idea where the story would go if the march were [i]succesful[/i]; okay, we've now destroyed the Consult, severely depleted the Sranc, preempted the No-God and are safe for a millenia. On to the third cycle of the series!

Not that it couldn't be well done, but that doesn't strike me as likely.
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I have been thinking a bit about the dunyain and what they're doing at this point, and I wonder if perhaps Kellh is not the only of his order in touch with the world anymore.

The dunyain are incredibly intelligent, rational beings who first and foremost wish to continue their existance as it is. In order for this to be possible they must remain a secret to the world or else risk being disturbed or even attacked. Now, one of their order left and later contacted them, which made them so nervous they sent his son out to kill him, thus preserving the secret. But Kellh never returned. Surely they must be worried he failed? Or succumed to the world like his father did? I cannot imagine that they simply settled with the hope that Kellhus is just late in returning.

These are the smartest people alive. Surely they've taken steps to find out what happened. And how would they react to finding Kellhus in charge of the known world? Will it take them long to realise they are a direct threat to his rule? I doubt it. I think that the only logical solution for the dunyain in regards to Kellhus is to destroy him. Twenty years since the end of TTT. That's a long time. What could they have done during that period? Kellhus has placed himself as a god, surely the best method of attacking his standing would be to use the gods already established?

Unless of course the consult have already wiped out the lot.
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I find a good amount of people implying that the Consult is somehow in control of all the Sranc in the known world.

I'd go as far as saying that, in fact, the Consult have absolutely no control over 99.9% of the Sranc that are out there. Only [i]the No-God himself[/i] was in control of all of the Tekne's creations. We have no evidence what-so-ever that the Consult can control these beasts any other way than through their own personal leadership. We've seen he who is presumably Aurax and he who is presumably Mekeritrig [i]personally[/i] leading Sranc. I'd think they can only do this through brute force and sheer intimidation, not some arcane power, and certainly not in the same manner as the No-God could.

I think it is misleading to assume that somehow the Consult was in control of the Bashrag and Sranc that were inside Cil-Aujas. If they could control them in such a manner, Men would already have fallen long before.
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We've specifically seen examples of where the Consult was directly in control of certain creations. I guess my point is that I don't understand why the Consult would specifically send someone they wanted critical information from into a place where they're almost certain to know that they have significant Tekne constructs available. Sranc are one thing, but Bashrag are not a 'cheap' construct.

But that's fine; we can assume that this was just a mistake by the Consult and something that they'd hope Akka would survive. Despite the efforts we've seen the Consult go to to keep people they need alive (Cnaiur) and the power over distance that they've been able to exert, we can go with that. Unless a high-ranking Consult is physically there, Sranc and Bashrag (even with Chorae) are just mindless hungering phalluses.

Mostly, I don't see how the Consult could possibly know that Akka would choose the Skin Eaters or even that he would choose to go any time soon. That alone destroys the notion. The Consult would have had to know that Akka was looking for the Dunyain and Ishual, know that he was going to sit on his ass, and either have sent Mimara or know that she was coming - AND know what reaction Akka would have to seeing Esmi again, except in a broken version. And they'd have to time all of this to coincide with the Great Ordeal's marching time, something they don't have direct control over.
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[quote name='Triskele' post='1701554' date='Feb 26 2009, 19.41']ETA. I agree with .H. that I dont' picture the Consult in absolute control of the Sranc. But I'm still a bit confused about how a band of Sranc down below Cil-Aujas have 12 Chorae at their disposal and seem to know their value.[/quote]

Well this is the first time we see Bashrag 'first hand'. It's never made clear just how intelligent they are. I mean, it's pretty obvious they are not geniuses, but they may understand the basics of magic=bad, Chorae=no magic=good.

But there is the nontrivial problem of where they got the Chorae from. They are in a Nonman manse though, so maybe they were laying around? :pirate:

Hell, Bashrag may be near immortal like Nonmen. If so, they may have had them since they killed the last of Cil-Aujas original inhabitants.

Or maybe it was just there to seem cool? :lol:
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If I had to guess, I'd say that the Chorae were left behind because they were left by those who guarded the gates, and their original purpose was to allow those gate guardians to fulfill their job. Only later was their purpose rejiggered to stop magicians. Their first purpose was to allow those to stop the outside from leaking in.
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Or, Kellhus is using Golgoterrah as an excuse to get a fighting force close enough to [u]Ishual[/u].

As for Akkas quest being engineered by Kellhus I don't really think so. The likelihood of success is just seems too tenuous to predict its outcome. They went through a mountain full of monsters and would have been killed if not for the nonman man. Perhaps Kellhus knowing of the nonman, his power and his likely lineage could facilitate this but that also seems unlikely. Then again the captain is a veteran and we do have an imperial tracker on board.
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