The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Kalbear]

Why wouldn't it be both?

Chorae are the tears of god, right?

Why is God crying?

Mimara, who can [i]see[/i] with the eyes of God using the Judging Eye, uses a [i]tear of God[/i] to...well, we're not sure. Answer a question, perhaps? Answer God? Banish something anethema to God's existence? But the obvious correlation between a tear of god and a judging eye is pretty unmistakable.

My guess is that Mimara (and others) who can see the world the way God sees can use the Chorae as a channel to God himself, to focus the power of the Chorae in a more directed way than just 'throw it at the bad guy'. It's a literal connection to God, possibly similar to how the Cishaurim connect with God's power without damning themselves. It might be that this was the intent of those of the Few all along.

[JGP]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1703541' date='Feb 28 2009, 13.42']My guess is that Mimara (and others) who can see the world the way God sees can use the Chorae as a channel to God himself, to focus the power of the Chorae in a more directed way than just 'throw it at the bad guy'. It's a literal connection to God, possibly similar to how the Cishaurim connect with God's power without damning themselves. It might be that this was the intent of those of the Few all along.[/quote]

Perhaps, but wasn't it the Inchoroi who created the chorae to counter the Nonmen?

[Jacen]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1703546' date='Feb 28 2009, 14.55']Perhaps, but wasn't it the Inchoroi who created the chorae to counter the Nonmen?[/quote]


Looked it up in the glossary in Thousand Fold thought.

All it says is that the Inchoroi seduce the Nonmen practitioners of the Aporos branch of sorcery, who were forbidden (curious fact, that) to practice their art. So no, the Inchies didn't make them, the Nonmen did.

Unrelated bits regarding Incariol's identity:

There are two incidents that I feel, depending on how you read them, either point to Mekeretrig or Nin'Jinjin as the only possibilities. I lean towards him being Mek, but there is enough evidence that I could buy it being Nin'Jinjin. Otherwise, they are the only Nonmen I know of that are synonymous with betrayal, unless he is a completely new Nonman character Bakker hasn't alluded to before.

1. Cleric's little monologue to the statue of C'ujara Cinmoi. Let's not forget that Nin'Jinjin was the one to actually [i]kill[/i] Cinmoi. The way I read it, Cleric's speech gives the tone of a doubter, a survivor of the ages merely questioning & mocking the pride of the great Nonman king, and that is all. But I could still see how it could be interpreted as someone gloating over the fall of an enemy. But Cleric doesn't seem to make it very personal. I would think Nin'Jinjin would speak differently towards Cinmoi, no?

2. We've actually seen Mek in action, we know he is still alive, Nin'Jinjin has never been in the story directly. So that is point towards it being Mek. Secondly, the Wight/Nonman King calls Incariol a betrayer. I would assume he is referring to a betrayal that directly lead to the fall of Cil-Aujas - the Apocalypse. Mek played a huge role in that, and as far as we know Nin'Jinjin was not involved... Yet another way to interpret the "Betrayer" statement is that the Wight King is referring all the way back to Nin'Jinjin's betrayal during the Nonmen-Inchoroi wars. But, as I said, I would think he was referencing the much more recent and personally applicable betrayal of Mek that lead to the fall of the wight's great manor.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1703568' date='Feb 28 2009, 16.03']Looked it up in the glossary in Thousand Fold thought.

All it says is that the Inchoroi seduce the Nonmen practitioners of the Aporos branch of sorcery, who were forbidden (curious fact, that) to practice their art. So no, the Inchies didn't make them, the Nonmen did.[/quote]

Interesting that the Greek etymology of 'Aporos' means, roughly, 'without passage,' or, 'impassable'...

For a race obsessed with Becoming, gates/portals/doorways could be symbolic of a process of change... So the aporos, then, as being something preventing passage through a portal, would be anathema to mainstream Nonman ideologies... Indeed, while the gates may have been guarded, they did not have doors... Recall the skineater in Cil-Aujas, "What does it mean... Gates without doors?"

But what passage do the chorae prevent?

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1703573' date='Feb 28 2009, 16.11']I don't like your theories Jacen, simply because I don't [i]want[/i] Cleric to be Mek. You make total sense though. I had some of the same thoughts about the use of the betrayal. You're right that it could easily be interpreted either way. I lean towards Nin but we don't know.

I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it's someone we haven't been introduced to in any other way but that's less likely.[/quote]

I think Scott will broaden our exposure to the Nonmen through introduction of a new character.

I don't think it is Mek, for aforementioned reasons... Nor Nin Jan'jin.

But, I do think it could be a son of Nin Jan'Jin

Or, along the new school of thought - Perhaps Incariol is an aporotic sorcerer? Following Cleric's sermon on Darkness, Akka says that Cleric sounds too much like Kelhus, and not enough like any of the nonman mystery cults that he knew of...

An aporotic sorcerer would be someone who might also slip through the cracks of history, and therefore be unknown to Akka...

[Jacen]

I can see why people don't want him to be Mek. But it seems like you guys want him to be one of the big BAD guys, for some badass future showdown between somebody (Kell, Achamian, one of the "good" guys). That would be cool.

BUT

Well, he is a bad guy yes, but he isn't at the same time. He's kind of a free agent. Sure, he was part of the Consult, but who is to say he still is? I just think it would be very interesting for Akka to figure out it's him, because a. what the hell would he do about that? and b. they could have one hell of an interesting conversation. Think about the delicious irony of Akka temporarily allied with one of the greatest foes of humanity & Seswatha, knowing that at any minute the guy could turn on them?

Admittedly, I'm a fan of the character. He won me over with that dream Akka had of him torturing Seswatha at Dagliash. Telling S. how much he loved him and all his human children as he tortured the guy and while working to destroy everything he loved. That is some awesome tragedy at play there.


on the chorae:

My Bible knowledge is not that great, but when God damned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, did not the inhabits turn to pillars of salt, and Lot's wife, who looked back at the city, also turned to salt? Doesn't that sound familiar to the effects of the Chorae?

Perhaps what the Aporos sorcerors were able to do was render Holiness...tangible and manifest? As in, these objects themselves are [i]holy[/i] and when they touch a sorceror, they are touching the person with God- instantly bringing about that person's damnation & death, and they turn to salt?

Perhaps what Mimara with her Judging eye and all that is able to do is, to use a chorae for more than protection against magic, but as a weapon against ALL things evil, in the view of the Gods at least?

[Ondrew Tyrell]

[quote name='nonman_erratic' post='1703577' date='Feb 28 2009, 17.22']The aporos, then, as being something preventing passage through a portal, would be anathema to mainstream Nonman ideologies... Indeed, while the gates may have been guarded, they did not have doors... Recall the skineater in Cil-Aujas, "What does it mean... Gates without doors?"[/quote]
Very interesting.

[quote]But what passage do the chorae prevent?[/quote]
Presumably passage from the outer planes to the material world? That is literally what we see happening at the end, after all. Both sorcery and Outside influence are forms of will reshaping reality, so it makes sense that if Chorae block one they would block the other.

Edit: 'Aporos' meaning 'without passage' makes Mimara's use of the Chorae at the end a pun on Gandalf's "You shall not pass" in Moria. :wideeyed:

[Ondrew Tyrell]

A couple of ideas about Mekeretrig possibly being Cleric:

(1) Cleric tells the wight that he never forgot about the possibility of damnation. Maybe that makes it more likely that he's with the Consult. On the other hand, maybe not, since even the Consult Erratics seem to be motivated more by memory than by damnation. It sounds like an important line one way or the other, though.

(2) What does it mean that Cleric's ideology reminds Achamian of Kellhus? So far the only connection we know of between Kellhus and the Nonmen is Mekeretrig. Of course there could be a connection we don't know of yet.

(3) There is also a very tenuous piece of metaevidence: Bakker let slip that the Nonman in TDTCB was Mekeretrig, and then said that we weren't supposed to know that yet. We don't yet know why that Nonman's identity was supposed to be a secret (if it wasn't just Bakker's general spoilerphobia), but we do now know of a Nonman with a secret identity: Cleric.

[Jacen]

lol, thank you sir. Three more very good reasons its probably Mek. Anybody remember if Cleric's armor is described in TJE?

[JGP]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1703568' date='Feb 28 2009, 15.03']Looked it up in the glossary in Thousand Fold thought.

All it says is that the Inchoroi seduce the Nonmen practitioners of the Aporos branch of sorcery, who were forbidden (curious fact, that) to practice their art. So no, the Inchies didn't make them, the Nonmen did.[/quote]

Just double checked the What Has Come Before from TJE, and it confirms it. You're right. Nonmen Aporetics created the chorae, which is interesting in and of itself.

Aporia is Greek, aporetic as well via Plato. Apparently aporia play into post-structural philosophies as well [Derrida] but of those I'm ignorant. [thanks, Wiki]

What we know of Nonmen theology is very little. All that I can recollect comes from Incariol, talking about the holiness of the dark, of Nonmen ignorance. I find it curious that Nonmen themselves found a way to effectively address that darkness, and yet prohibited the Aporetics. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't, perhaps? Probably explains why the practice of Aporos was forbidden. I'd like to know more about this.

That the Aporetics aided the Inchoroi isn't perplexing. Not if through their study of, or just the creation of the chorae, they discovered something in the darkness that they didn't like and found alignment with the goal of the Inchoroi preferable to... whatever.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

Cleric's armor: "She sees Cleric stride through the line to Achamian's right. His cloak cast away, he stands planked in silvery armour, plates skirted in impossibly fine chain, his greatsword swinging from his left hip." I'm not sure if there is more detail anywhere else.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1703616' date='Feb 28 2009, 18.07']Do we know if Mekeritrig is [i]Ishroi[/i] or not?[/quote]


Seswatha refers to him as, "Cet'ingira... my prince..."

Also, Akkas description of the Dagliash dream describes Mek's posture as the 'curiously affected manner of Nonmen Ishroi"

So yes, Mek is Ishroi

We hear Mek's armour described here as being nimil of interlocking cranes, with tails following to the ground.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1703605' date='Feb 28 2009, 18.54']I had totally forgotten that we weren't supposed to know that it was Mek, where did that secret get out?[/quote]
On the Three Seas forum, I think. I couldn't find the original posts in a quick search, but I found a secondhand reference [url="http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?p=19650#p19650"]here[/url].

[quote name='Triskele' post='1703616' date='Feb 28 2009, 19.07']I'm looking back in the text and found an oh-so-small bit that just maybe seems like Mek in Cleric's demeanor. While he flying and burning Sranc, he is laughing. That does seem like something the character from the prologue would do.[/quote]
There is another case too: when he is collapsing the ceiling by cutting down the pillars with his spells Achamian yells at him to stop but he just laughs. He's definitely nuts enough to be Mekeritrig. All that does is fail to rule him out, though. Any Erratic would be equally crazy.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1703698' date='Feb 28 2009, 20.43']I actually don't want him to be Mek because I want Cleric to be a good guy somehow. You make good points about Mek being a "free agent." He's fought on both sides over history. He seems to be erratic as Hell. But as you point out his tragic ending with Seswatha, the character glows of tragedy to me and so I feel his arc will end with him being bad.

Crazy theory but if Cleric is Nin, I would love to see him try to save humanity to make up for betraying nonmen.[/quote]

Here's an interesting tidbit from Scott :

Scott, could you say who or what is Nin-Ciljiras? He (or it) is mentioned by the Inchoroi...

by Cu'jara Cinmoi on Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:59 am

He's a character in [i]The Aspect-Emperor[/i]...

[Jacen]

Where did you get this from? When do the Inchoroi mention him? And aspect emperor is the whole trilogy, so that could mean he has yet to appear, whoever he is, if it is true.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1703735' date='Feb 28 2009, 21.50']Where did you get this from? When do the Inchoroi mention him? And aspect emperor is the whole trilogy, so that could mean he has yet to appear, whoever he is, if it is true.[/quote]

From TWP, The Synthese to Sarcellus, wondering who Kelhus is:

"Perhaps... But we have spies-even in Ishterebinth. There is little that Nin-Ciljiras does that we don't know. Very little."

Someone above posted a note about Nin-Ciljiras in a previous glossary. Supposedly he is the current king of Ishterebinth.

Other possibilities: We do not know what became of Nil-Giccas, king of Ishterebinth at the time of the First Apocalypse. All we hear is that he retired from Celmomas' Ordeal, embittered by the loss of his sons... And later reconciled with Celmomas when the No-God was resurrected.

That said... 'The loss of his sons' doesn't elaborate on HOW they were lost...

So... Could Nin-Ciljiras be Incariol? Maybe... Though if things were straightforward (which they seldom are in Scott's world), he would be busy with his own people in Ishterebinth... Maybe Nin-Ciljiras is Nil-Giccas renamed?

But where is Nil-Giccas?

Perhaps Incariol is actually Nil-Giccas... But again, presumably Akka would recognize him... In one of the earlier books, Akka clearly remembers Nil Giccas from the Celmomas' ordeal: "Great Nil'gikas stood like a point of brilliant sunlight amid smoke and violent shadow"

Perhaps Incariol is a lost son of Nil-Giccas? We do not learn HOW his two sons were lost in the first Ordeal...

I still don't think Incariol is Mekeretrig... He has no scar on his chin, from his fight with Kelhus in tDTCB:

"Kellhus opened the Nonman's exposed chin. Blood, black in the gloom, spilled across his breast. A second stroke sent the uncanny blade skittering across snow and ice. "

[Jacen]

Well,

1. The scar Mek [i]might[/i] have seems a very minor detail, Bakker could have just forgotten about it. Or, we just haven't had a in depth description of Incariol's face. Bakker doesn't describe people in exhaustive detail. Do we even know that Nonmen can get scars? Maybe they heal completely, we just don't know. Seems a very minor tidbit to completely rule out anyone.

2. Nil-Giccas, Nin-Ciljiras whoever they are, I find it unlikely that a Nonman king would just walk away from ruling his kingdom to gallivant around the countryside hunting Sranc. It seems implied that the Nonmen of Ishterebinth are somewhat different than the Erratics roaming around.

3. The fight Mek had with Kellhus. For one thing, I do not know if Mek was fighting Kellhus all out or was just testing him. Even if he was, I would take that as more a testament of how great Kellhus is as a fighter, than showing that Mek is a crappy warrior. For everything Mek accomplished there is no way in hell he is a pushover fighter. He's had thousands of years to become a good swordsman, and I'm sure anyone but a Dunyain would be dead meat in a fight against him. So no, I don't think how Incariol fought is out of the realm of possibility for Mek.

4. And recall how many times Kellhus just utterly dominated his opponents when the odds seemed impossible. There are numerous times in the books he fights overwhelming numbers with just the sword alone. I imagine for a guy that can read your face and know your deepest secrets and passions - taking a look at your body language and knowing what you are going to do in a sword fight is child's play. Not to mention his people have selectively bred for thousands of years to create the strongest and most dexterous people ever. Cnaiur seems like the greatest normal human fighter we have seen thus far, but even he had zero chance against Kellhus in a fight.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1703807' date='Mar 1 2009, 01.10']1. The scar Mek [i]might[/i] have seems a very minor detail, Bakker could have just forgotten about it. Or, we just haven't had a in depth description of Incariol's face. Bakker doesn't describe people in exhaustive detail. Do we even know that Nonmen can get scars? Maybe they heal completely, we just don't know. Seems a very minor tidbit to completely rule out anyone.[/quote]

True, we do not know if Nonmen are capable of scarless healing... Interesting that scarless healing IRL is a property of fetal tissue...

We do, however, have a good description of Cleric's face when he removes his leather cowl for the first time at the gates of Cil-Aujas... He is described as fair, pale, hairless, with fused teeth, and smooth of skin.

[quote]2. Nil-Giccas, Nin-Ciljiras whoever they are, I find it unlikely that a Nonman king would just walk away from ruling his kingdom to gallivant around the countryside hunting Sranc. It seems implied that the Nonmen of Ishterebinth are somewhat different than the Erratics roaming around.[/quote]

Yes, I was getting at that in my above post... If Nin-Ciljiras = Nil-Giccas, then I this person is most likely still in Ishterebinth. If they are separate people, then I wager nin-Ciljiras is still in Ishterebinth, which makes it possible that Nil-Giccas is wandering around somewhere. But Akka would probably recognize him if Nil-GIccas = Cleric.

The only difference between Ishterebinthians and Erratics are that erratics actively seek out trauma in order to remember...

A description from Scott:

"The Nonmen are generally 'good,' (in their own myopic, self-interested way), but the problem is that they are all going insane. They're immortals with mortal brains, and the problem is that the longer they live, the more the traumatic events they suffer crowd out their other memories. A group of them, called the 'Erratics,' actually actively seek out trauma as a means to remember. Since the Consult is good at providing horrifyingly unforgettable experiences, a number of Erratics have joined them. Mekeritrig is one of them."

[quote]3. The fight Mek had with Kellhus. For one thing, I do not know if Mek was fighting Kellhus all out or was just testing him. Even if he was, I would take that as more a testament of how great Kellhus is as a fighter, than showing that Mek is a crappy warrior. For everything Mek accomplished there is no way in hell he is a pushover fighter. He's had thousands of years to become a good swordsman, and I'm sure anyone but a Dunyain would be dead meat in a fight against him. So no, I don't think how Incariol fought is out of the realm of possibility for Mek.[/quote]

I think Mek intentionally held back/was caught unprepared for Kelhus... Mek is an Ishroi/Quya sorceror... As he said when he fought Kelhus, he wanted to remember... Blasting someone with a Quyan war cant right off the bat probably wouldn't be that memorable... The dude that cut my chin open and shocked the hell out of me with his physical, very un-human/in-human/super-human reflexes with a sword = Very memorable.

[Zparanoid]

I wonder if Kellhus can read Nonmen like he can read men.

[unJon]

Just reread TDTCB prologue. Really cannot reconcile the Mek from that prologue with Cleric.