The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Mackaxx]

[quote name='unJon' post='1705519' date='Mar 3 2009, 14.35']He is. Kel has one goal, to dominate circumstance.[/quote]

For whom?

And if you say himself, then why?

[lokisnow]

Finished.

Loved it. disappointed more didn't happen, but Cil Aujus and Kelmomas made up for it. :D

could the traveler at the beginning be Kayutas? I'd forgotten about that bit of prologue til I started reading this thread. I did wonder while reading the Cil Aujus bit if Kosotor was a rogue skin spy or not, considering how well he fought and his comment about hell. the prologue seems to indicate that the Traveler sees Clerics mark, even if he doesn't recognize Cleric himself.

I think Kellhus has kept Akka alive due to the conversation Kellhus had with 'seswatha-within-akka' in TTT, I think that Kellhus may have learned of Seswatha's fathering of Nau Cayuti and perhaps other things as well (the location of the heron spear? Ishual map? Celmomas' dreams of the future (perhaps of the second apocalypse?)?) and needs Akka for a seswatha-ish task he can't entrust to anyone who believes in Kellhus. Kellhus has let Esme think that he allowed Akka to live for her sake, and he's also allowed the book to filter around because it's a way of controlling anti-kellhus sentiments (ie it's much easier and safer to let people convince themselves he's just a super smart conditioned mortal than for them to think he's a demon. people like Zasonger or whoever the Zeumy dude that read the book is are far more likely to want to hear a seemingly rational explanation than an explanation that only confirms his supernaturalness (god/demon). Likewise Kellhus let Esme think it was her choice to allow Mimara to be trained as a witch or not, but he conditioned Esme in such a way that Esme wouldn't allow it. Kellhus didni't want Mimara to be trained, he wanted her as a tool (she looked so like her mother) to jolt Akka out of his hermitude. I don't think Kellhus anticipated far beyond that, she was simply the most useful leverage around. Akka's way was conditioned to the Skin Eaters as well, but I don't think the route the Skin Eaters took was conditioned, too many variables and unexpected shit. That, I think, was the Whore in action.

The topos made me wonder if Men were created by non men, were their children, and that the nonmen enslaved them and horribly mistreated them for thousands of years despite this? that part of what created the topos wasn't just the weight and horrors of slavery, but that they did it continually to their own children--akin to what the dunyain do to their children who aren't good enough to be conditioned. for some reason, the topos and Cil Aujil in general made me call into question the womb plague itself. Was it really the Inchoroi or was it simply easier for the nonmen to apportion blame to someone else than accept it themselves. Theory: the wombplague was not caused by the Inchoroi (we just accept it so without question because of the similarities to the effect the no-god had) all the Inchoroi did was provide life without natural death but the two became conflated into the same crime. Alternate theory, the women non-men were not made infertile by the womb plague, the men all were, but the men killed all the women because they couldn't accept that they might be the source of the problem, nope, it has to be the ladies. ;)

The frozen lake of women and children was freaky. are those nonmen or humans? I love that we got an explanation of why they're also called 'tears of god' from Mimara, I think that's opening up a whole fascinating new avenue of inquiry about the nature of Chorae themselves and whether or not they're all constructed by the consult and whether or not they're tools (as Mimara used it at that stairs and also in making it 'glow') that no one any longer recognizes for their true purpose, instead using them as 'blunt weapons' rather than in the refined methods they were perhaps supposed to be used for. Could perhaps chorae be a lens that focuses sorcery? I'm thinking also maybe chorae are our Palantir analogue and maybe both at once. :D

[Jacen]

Locke, regarding the Inchoroi- Nonmen business

It wasn't that the Nonmen females weren't having babies, they were [i]dying[/i] outright. Even the virgins. In the books and the glossary Bakker has always said this was a consequence of allowing the Inchoroi to move among them freely as their doctors. I have to take that particular statement as fact.

Besides, the death of the Nonmen females is the very heart of the tragedy of their race. No way would they inflict that on themselves.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Jacen']It wasn't that the Nonmen females weren't having babies, they were [i]dying[/i] outright.[/quote]

And even the males got sick. It's probably only due to the fact that the Inchoroi messed up slightly in creating the plague that anyone survived at all.

Also, the ancestors of the current human population of Eärwa came from Eänna (east of the Great Kayarsus mountains) after the Womb Plague.

[Mackaxx]

Some more prologue musing, do we know precisely how long before the events of the book this little section took place? Obviously a fair while after the scalping bounty was placed but how long before Akka arrived on the scene at Marrow. Just a vague idea that in the Skin eaters we have a fairly suspicious selection of characters that may in fact be the traveler. Theres your imperial tracker for a start, and then your ridiculously good sword dancing fellow/skin spy.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Mackaxx']Some more prologue musing, do we know precisely how long before the events of the book this little section took place?[/quote]

IIRC there is a date given at the beginning, just like for all other chapters. I don't have the book at hand right now, but I believe it took place between several months and a year earlier.

[Mackaxx]

If it was months before the newby fella interested in Mimara could be a suspect? If it was years before then it could be any of the longer serving scalpers.

All that said in you'd think the judging eye would suss out baddies that are to do with the consult, Kellhus less so.

[lokisnow]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1706456' date='Mar 3 2009, 12.31']Locke, regarding the Inchoroi- Nonmen business

It wasn't that the Nonmen females weren't having babies, they were [i]dying[/i] outright. Even the virgins. In the books and the glossary Bakker has always said this was a consequence of allowing the Inchoroi to move among them freely as their doctors. I have to take that particular statement as fact.

Besides, the death of the Nonmen females is the very heart of the tragedy of their race. No way would they inflict that on themselves.[/quote]
actually that info just makes me more suspicious that the history we know of the nature of the womb plague and the inchoroi is not 100% reliable, merely how it is always understood.

then again, I want to find ways to justify my own theories. I find very compelling the idea that the nonmen have the main culpability for the womb plague and that it wasn't an infliction of the Inchoroi, but the nonmen choose to blame the Inchoroi rather than understand what it was of their own actions that came before which caused the womb plague. This willful blindness on the part of the nonmen would be in line with Bakker's writing, imo.

could the dunyain be creating a topos in Ishual with their 2000 years of torture and study of their children?

also, regarding that they wouldn't inflict it upon themselves, we take it a certainty that erratics are erratic because they need the tragedy to remember. but was that the reason they began doing it? or was it to forget, to use new trauma to wipe out that which they could never seem to forget? they lose their less well fixed memories as their mortal brains age, causing the unforgettable events to loom ever larger in them, driving them towards erraticism in an attempt to displace and lose memories that are overwhelming them.

[delete this account pls]

Going back to the traveller in the prologue; Kosoter's second words to the stranger are; "How did you find us?"

He never asks "Who are you?" Or "Who sent you?"

That, combined with the traveller's analytical thoughts, pretty much cinch it for me. The traveller ain't from the Consult. It's Kellhus, or one of his kids.

[Kalbear]

I don't think necessarily that indicates that he's Kellhus or one of the kids; I think it does indicate that he knows who he is without having to ask - or at least knows what he's about. I'd lean towards the secret police - the 'we find everyone' is what makes me think that.

[.H.]

[quote name='Mackaxx' post='1706553' date='Mar 3 2009, 16.25']If it was months before the newby fella interested in Mimara could be a suspect? If it was years before then it could be any of the longer serving scalpers.

All that said in you'd think the judging eye would suss out baddies that are to do with the consult, Kellhus less so.[/quote]

The Prologue takes place in Autumn, 19 New Imperial Year (4131 Year-of-the-Tusk).

Akka goes to Marrow in Early Spring, 19 New Imperial Year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk).

So, it is something like half a year or so, between the two events.

Only the conversation the Captain has with the Traveler can explain why he chooses to take the trip to Sauglish. If he knew of Sauglish and he knew of the Coffers, why would he choose to go, unless the Traveler somehow compelled him?

I'm pretty sure that we've heard latter that the 'legendary' Scalpoi were all dead, except the Skin Eaters, making it pretty obvious which one Akka would try to contact. What other unit would possibly take on such a journey?

My crackpot theory of the moment: The Captain is some kind of Synthese or something like it.

[Kalbear]

I dont' remember what the organization's name was (the magistrates?) but something along those lines.

[unJon]

[quote name='Mackaxx' post='1705625' date='Mar 3 2009, 01.03']For whom?

And if you say himself, then why?[/quote]
That's an easy one. To attain the Absolute, the Unconditioned Soul. For a Dunyain all that matters is the mission, and that has always been the mission.

[quote name='lockesnow' post='1706704' date='Mar 3 2009, 17.41']could the dunyain be creating a topos in Ishual with their 2000 years of torture and study of their children?[/quote]
Great thought. What would be the results? Is it something that may just be start and may have some effect in the future books? Is it something that has been around for awhile causing a perversion of the Dunyain? Very interesting.


Has anyone found a reference to Kosoter in the PON trilogy? Would be interesting to know if he was ever briefly mentioned.

[Mackaxx]

[quote name='unJon' post='1706900' date='Mar 4 2009, 12.33']That's an easy one. To attain the Absolute, the Unconditioned Soul. For a Dunyain all that matters is the mission, and that has always been the mission.[/quote]

Kellhus is still a Dunyain then? Untainted?

[Jacen]

No, he's more than Dunyain now. Either he really believes he is divine or he aspires to be.

[Krafus]

I'm not sure if it's been suggested before in this thread (I finished the book yesterday and do not want to wade through all 18 pages of discussion), but is there anyone else who thinks that the Fanayal making trouble in the south might in fact be a Consult skin-spy? Even if the real Fanayal escaped the final battle for Shimeh, he could have been replaced later.

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

[quote name='Krafus' post='1707596' date='Mar 4 2009, 09.32']I'm not sure if it's been suggested before in this thread (I finished the book yesterday and do not want to wade through all 18 pages of discussion), but is there anyone else who thinks that the Fanayal making trouble in the south might in fact be a Consult skin-spy? Even if the real Fanayal escaped the final battle for Shimeh, he could have been replaced later.[/quote]

Personally, I think there's probably skin-spies all over the 3 Seas and everywhere else for that matter.

They've got the Great Ordeal led by, probably, the greatest sorcerer of all time bearing down on them - they've got some surprises cooked up I'd bet.

[Slyfinger]

Just finished.


Awesome.


Questions:

Regarding what we know of topos(Cil Aujas, Mengedda), wouldn't Golgotterath be like the topos of all topos? I'm thinking that the Outside not only leaks into the world here, but it ... [i]stains[/i] it.


And if Chorae are 'Tears of God' fashioned by Aporos Nonmen sorcery... used in conjunction with the 'Judging Eye'... that'd be like God shutting his 'door' on you.

Is that what happend with Mimara and the Great Nonman Other?





And I think Unjon is on the money concerning Kellus attempting to Condition the Outside. If he were to suceede in his attempt than he would truly master the darkness that came before. The Unconditioned Soul. The Absolute.




God of Gods in truth.

[Jacen]

Obtaining the absolute doesn't help much when you die and burn in hell. The damnation thing is going to override his pursuit of the absolute.

[nonman_erratic]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1707933' date='Mar 4 2009, 13.21']Obtaining the absolute doesn't help much when you die and burn in hell. The damnation thing is going to override his pursuit of the absolute.[/quote]


My guess on who Lord Kosoter is:

"an Ainoni caste-noble called Gayamakri-one of the Nascenti, the others said"

Originally one of, " the nine Nascenti, the senior disciples of the Warrior-Prophet," he obviously sounds disenfranchised with the whole thing...