The Judging Eye by Scott Bakker

[Jon AS]

[quote name='kuenjato']What other option does the Consult have?[/quote]

Right now it looks like they don't even have that option as long as they can't bring back the No-God. That seems to be their only means of controlling the Sranc on a large scale, and without that they can't inflict all that much destruction on the world. Also keep in mind that they did in fact destroy Kelmomas' Great Ordeal during the First Apocalypse, but they still lost in the end.

[lokisnow]

why would the Consult just sit tight and wait for the Great Ordeal to arrive?

[unJon]

[quote name='Mackaxx' post='1707078' date='Mar 3 2009, 23.12']Kellhus is still a Dunyain then? Untainted?[/quote]
He's certainly not untainted. He's Dunyain conditioned still. All that matters is mission. He's batshit crazy though.

If Bakker has done one thing very logically, it is to set up the motivations of the main forces. The Consult has a very compelling motivation for what they are doing. The Dunyain have a motivation to obtain the absolute and are single-mindedly trying to accomplish that. Moenghus spent 30 years dreaming up and implementing the TTT for very compelling reasons.

I'm guessing that Kel will turn out to have a very well reasoned and compelling motivation for his actions that has not been revealed. I do not buy explanation at the end of PON that Kel had to kill Moe and take over the TTT because eventually Moe would realize he needed to join the Consult to seal the world, [i]but[/i] that Kel was different because the Tusk was rewritten with him. Total B.S. that Kel would not believe because it would violate the principle that what comes before determines what comes after.

However, I do find compelling that Kel is trying to "come before" the Outside. To dominate it and then he really could 'rewrite the Tusk.' TJE shows it hasn't yet been rewritten, but it might.

ETA: typos

[nonman_erratic]

I am a little puzzled by the conversation that took place between Cleric and Gin'yursis in Cil Aujas...

In tDtCB, there is a glossary of tongues spoken by men, nonmen, etc... In addition to the first tongue, Auja-Gilcunni, it lists Aujic, lost tongue of the Aujan mansions (which I took to mean Cil Aujas and its tributaries), Gilcunya, the gnostic sorcery language, and Ihrimsu, the language of Injor Niyas/Ishoriol/Ishterebinth (presumably originally a language of the Nonman mansion of Nihrimsul, and adopted or enforced upon Ishoriol when Sin'niroiha became king of Ishoriol via marriage)

There are many languages of men listed... Meoric, Kuniuri, Kyranean, High Sheyic (Ceneian empire), low Sheyic (Nansur and universal language of the 3 seas)... Only the first 3 would have been around at the time of Gin'yursis's death.

Given that we see the conversation from the point of view of Mimara, who as far as we know speaks (low) Sheyic and Ainoni, neither of which were spoken when Gin'yursis was alive, I am confused as to how she was able to understand the conversation between Cleric and Gin'yursis... How could Gin'yursis be speaking in Sheyic or Ainoni, when neither language existed at the time of his murder...

Some inherent function of possession when he spoke via an unconscious Achamian and the other Skin Eater?


On another note, TTT and tDtCB appendices make mention several times, as well as in the Cil Aujas portions of TJE, that Auja-Gilcunni, is yet to be deciphered...

Kelhus has had some 20 years with access to at least one old nonman mansion... I am willing to bet that he's managed to uncover some sort of nonman rosetta stone whereby he or Kayutas have 'deciphered' Auja-Gilcunni... I predict some huge insight into the world of either Sorcery, God/The Gods/The Outside, or both in the upcoming books via the revelations through re-learning Auja-Gilcunni.

[lokisnow]

[quote name='nonman_erratic' post='1712139' date='Mar 7 2009, 22.10']On another note, TTT and tDtCB appendices make mention several times, as well as in the Cil Aujas portions of TJE, that Auja-Gilcunni, is yet to be deciphered...

Kelhus has had some 20 years with access to at least one old nonman mansion... I am willing to bet that he's managed to uncover some sort of nonman rosetta stone whereby he or Kayutas have 'deciphered' Auja-Gilcunni... I predict some huge insight into the world of either Sorcery, God/The Gods/The Outside, or both in the upcoming books via the revelations through re-learning Auja-Gilcunni.[/quote]
I've always been suspicious of Auja Gilcunni. But what nonman mansion has Kellhus or Kayutas had access to?

[Jon AS]

[quote name='lockesnow']But what nonman mansion has Kellhus or Kayutas had access to?[/quote]

The one in Shimeh, where Kellhus found Moënghus.

[john]

I think it's very interesting, the different presentations of Kellhus' behaviour in TTT and TJE, represented in this thread by the different interpretations of Triskele and unJon.

In TTT, as far as I'm concerned, it's made absolutely clear that Kellhus believes he is the God. He says so to Moenghus and comes up with some pretty convincing reasons.

- The God talks to him (also the No-God)
- He prophesised Saubon's extremely unlikely victory
- He walks away from the Circumfixion when he shouldn't have been alive much less able to stand
- His bloodline was destined to be involved in the Second Apocalypse [as an aside, maybe Seswatha prophecised the return of an Anasurimbor only because he's dreaming Akka's life]

Taken together these seem very telling (although Bakker would be the first to point out that that is how delusion works). What's more, at that point Achamian does not deny that he's a genuine prophet, only that manipulating people is the wrong way to go about things.

Now, in TJE, the whole thing is like Kellhus is a tyrant, he's in it for himself. And Akka has claimed not only that he's a manipulator but that he definitely isn't the God in Human form and his claims of wanting to defeat the No-God are false. Plus the look back at the previous trilogy does seem to declare him mad. The whole thing seems a very deliberate shift of focus. Sorweel thinks that Kellhus is glorious, yes, but he doesn't at any point believe him. And since 20 years have passed (during which he may have gone to Hell and come back) I don't think we can really extrapolate anything about his motivations.

On specifics -

[b]Traveller[/b]
Totally agree it must be one of Kellhus' agents. The comment about "they were like animals" might suggest one of the kids, but it could equally apply to the Ministrate or any other part of the Empire's administartion. Don't think it was Kayutus since he's the General of a cavalry brigade that's actively deployed at that point in time. Kosoter is well known to the empire and Kellhus himself, I don't see what else could be meant by the exchange "How did you find us? We find everyone." Plus, why would the Consult feel the need to honour a legal requirement of the Empire and acknowledge the veteran.

But having said that, my initial thought when i read "We want you" (after which kosoter looks at cleric for some reason?) was "skin-spy."

[b]Cleric[/b]
My first thought was he was the unknown Nonman who raped the human woman, ended the Nonman tutelage and consequently lead to the First Apocalypse. As somebody else mentioned way up thread. Now though, I dunno. There is a big deal made about him being Ishroi and also about Nonmen all looking the same but I wouldn't necessarily take that to mean anything, Bakker likes a liberal coating of red herring.

[b]Ickle Anasurimbors[/b]
Didn't really have a problem with them having semi-Dunyain skills. It's made very clear that it's nothing like the real deal. Kayutus' efforts are cringeworthy (I can read your thoughts so bow before me!). I really liked how Kelomas is distinctly human despite his abilities, he's as dominated as anyone.

Also, did anyone else notice how Inrilatas only went properly mad after he was interacting solely with Kellhus? I read it like he was forced into insanity.

My favourite quote from this book - [i]Father says you need fear only when you lose your fear. Father was always saying things[/i].

[Tears of Lys]

I've finished my first read, and I loved it. After reading through this thread, I can see I need to go back and do another read! which I was going to do anyway. :love:

The children Anasurimbor are fascinating... Kellhus DOES turn out to be a pile-driver, like Raidne prophesized... I missed the birdie too (it was always fun when that guy showed up)... I don't miss Cnaiur and Conphas as much as I feared (plenty of other exciting characters, like Cleric)... and I don't think Cleric is Mereketrig. Sorry, Jacen. It didn't make sense that he's herding the Sranc around at the beginning of tDtCB, and later on he's fighting them. yeah, I know he's erratic, but there ARE limits. :P

One quibble, okay two: I did think the "Moria" bit went on too long, and I didn't think it was necessary for Mimara and Akka to get it on. What a sad mistake THAT was.

I don't get where Bakker's going with Mim and her Judging Eye abilities. Maybe it's to prove to us that there IS a real damnation to worry about for our guy Akka, which leads to the following quote:

[quote name='unJon' post='1711282' date='Mar 6 2009, 20.54']However, I do find compelling that Kel is trying to "come before" the Outside. To dominate it and then he really could 'rewrite the Tusk.' TJE shows it hasn't yet been rewritten, but it might.

ETA: typos[/quote]

Agreed. If Kellhus is actually able to do this and then die a glorious death (after so many of us spoke badly about him :P ) then we can forgive him for being the manipulative pile-driver he is.

[quote name='john' post='1714262' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.52']My favourite quote from this book - [i]Father says you need fear only when you lose your fear. [b]Father was always saying things[/b][/i][b].
[/b][/quote]

I liked that too. No one's a hero to their valet - or their kids.

[Jacen]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1716693' date='Mar 11 2009, 18.43']... and I don't think Cleric is Mereketrig. Sorry, Jacen. It didn't make sense that he's herding the Sranc around at the beginning of tDtCB, and later on he's fighting them. yeah, I know he's erratic, but there ARE limits. :P[/quote]


I totally disagree. He spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of years tutoring mankind out of a primitive state only to betray then and try to kill them off wholesale. After a betrayal like [i]that[/i], killing a few hundred Sranc in Cil-Aujas seems minor. He goes where the highest chance of tragedy is.

[Tears of Lys]

But doesn't Cleric strike you as somewhat low-key and a bit passive? (when not pwning Sranc, of course.) Merek. was a commanding presence that radiated power. Cleric spent most of the slog quiet and deferring to Lord Koroster.

And Triskele, I see your point about the new characters not exactly taking Cnaiur's place yet. But to me, Akka's becoming much more interesting - not so woebegone. don't get me wrong, I thought Cnaiur in particular is one of the most interesting characters I've ever read about. But I actually missed Kellhus more. I don't see him as a robot like most others do. His flashes of occasional emotion that surprise even him were intriguing and some of the more interesting things to me in the other books.

[Jacen]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1716886' date='Mar 11 2009, 22.28']But doesn't Cleric strike you as somewhat low-key and a bit passive? (when not pwning Sranc, of course.) Merek. was a commanding presence that radiated power. Cleric spent most of the slog quiet and deferring to Lord Koroster.

And Triskele, I see your point about the new characters not exactly taking Cnaiur's place yet. But to me, Akka's becoming much more interesting - not so woebegone. don't get me wrong, I thought Cnaiur in particular is one of the most interesting characters I've ever read about. But I actually missed Kellhus more. I don't see him as a robot like most others do. His flashes of occasional emotion that surprise even him were intriguing and some of the more interesting things to me in the other books.[/quote]

First thing, well like I said before in this thread, we've seen Mek in two very [i]brief[/i] scenes. And in those two scenes he totally did not act the same way as the other. We have to remember these guys are fucking crazy. Remember the Mek in the prologue- his Sranc "book" got killed by Kellhus. Maybe this sent him in a tailspin and he's been wandering around the wastes in confusion ever since? Who knows?

Point is, I don't think we know enough about him to really judge if Cleric "acted" like him.

Second, I totally agree with your statement "But I actually missed Kellhus more. I don't see him as a robot like most others do. His flashes of occasional emotion that surprise even him were intriguing and some of the more interesting things to me in the other books."

I too, find Kellhus interesting. I think alot of people simplify him more than is perhaps correct. I did miss seeing Kell in this book, though the few minutes he did show up were awesome.

[Tears of Lys]

If you mean by the two scenes we saw him in, the dream Akka had of him tormenting Seswatha on the wall, I don't think he was that much different. but I'll have to reread that portion since I don't recall it exactly. I don't feel as strongly as you do either way. It was just a sense I had of him.

I really did love the book, though. Can't wait for the next one.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='john']as an aside, maybe Seswatha prophecised the return of an Anasurimbor only because he's dreaming Akka's life[/quote]

IIRC it's Celmomas who prophecises the return of an Anasûrimbor, right before he dies.

[lokisnow]

I wonder if Mimara's Judging Eye stuff comes from the same side of things that the Psukhe might come from? meaning it was more intuitive what she did, but she was touching into a different aspect of how magic interacts with the world. Perhaps the nonmen escaped from Outside to Earwa as well as the Inchorae did? or perhaps they were condemned there and their magics were damned, thus when humans use the magic descended from nonmen the damnation that applies to their race descends upon them as well?

[Black Dow]

I have a question about Eleva, the imposter-witch who was discovered by the Yathew Superior. Apparently, she managed to kill and replace the real Eleva. But the imposter was definitely a sorcerer, as opposed to a regular skin-spy, as she was killed by Chorae. And I don't believe she could have been a sorcerous skinspy, as was Simas, because it is unlikely that the Witch school (I'm forgetting the name right now) would have a skinspy in their service.

So, are sorcerers, then, able to impersonate, as the skinspies are able to? Or it is a talent that is limited to the witches?

It seems to me, that if sorcerers were able to steal bodies, then the whole concept of the skinspies would not have been that shocking to the world (as it was obviously was in the PoN trilogy) because it is probable that the sorcerers would have doing this for years, and probably all of the factions would have frequently infected by these 'sorcerer dopplegangers' for generations. Yet it is clear that the first (and only) impersonations of the PoN novels came from the skinspies.

Anyone have an explanation or theory for this?

[Tears of Lys]

I don't think the spy witch in the Cult of Yatwer had taken over the identity of anyone. I thought she was just either a spy all along or had been turned by the New Empire and the Kellhus' administration. If sorcerors/witches are able to be skin-spies, this would be the first I've heard of it.

[Jacen]

I don't think she was a skin spy either. But it is possible for them to be magic users. Simas, the Mandate sorcerer was a skin spy and able to channel, although apparently he was a one-of-a-kind anomaly. Though perhaps in the last twenty years the Consult has figured out how to reproduce a skin spy like him?

[Kalbear]

She was an imposter [b]witch[/b] - one of Serwa's witch cadre. Not a skin-spy. Just a Kellhus spy.

And yes, there was a skinspy in the first series that was also one of the Few, though apparently that was special (or a big mistake from Bakker's view)

[Maia]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1717433' date='Mar 12 2009, 13.15']And yes, there was a skinspy in the first series that was also one of the Few, though apparently that was special (or a big mistake from Bakker's view)[/quote]

Hm... the skin-spies in their POVs seemed so primitive and lust-ridden that I wondered how one of them could be able to understand Gnosis, even being of the Few.

[Black Dow]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1717417' date='Mar 12 2009, 14.11']I don't think the spy witch in the Cult of Yatwer had taken over the identity of anyone. I thought she was just either a spy all along or had been turned by the New Empire and the Kellhus' administration. If sorcerors/witches are able to be skin-spies, this would be the first I've heard of it.[/quote]

The Mother Superior (or whatever she was) stated that Eleva has been dead for several weeks now or something to that effect. Unless she meant the use of the word 'dead' as just being the same thing as a traitor (i.e, she's been 'dead' to our cause), then the real Eleva was killed and replaced.