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House BleuSpade

A Complaint about the Added Scene

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So I read the pilot synopsis posted over on Winter is Coming, and for the most part I thought it looked very promising, having done a very nice job of condensing down a massive amount of storytelling in a manageable way. There was one thing I had a problem with... though I am well aware this may stem from my own alternate character understanding... anyways:
The scene I have a problem with was the new one added in which Jaime is bringing Tyrion news of some sort (that they're going to Winterfell I believe) and finds him in a whore house. Now, let me explain why I think this creates a different outlook on Tyrion than the one in the books.

Tyrion has a reputation for being fond of whores. With a little bit of attention, however, it becomes clear that this reputation probably started with his father, who takes every opportunity to ridicule him about the Tysha incident. Throughout the three books Tyrion is in, Tyrion has slept with exactly ONE whore: Shae. Not once in the three books has he visited a whorehouse for the purpose of fucking, even going to great lengths to stay "faithful" to his paramour. When Tyrion hired Shae back in the war camp, he told her he expected more from her than just sex. He said something along the lines of "you'll laugh at my jokes, pour my wine, wash my clothes... etc. etc." Now, looking at the complex history and character of Tyrion, it seems to me it's obvious this reputation for being a whorefiend is a little misleading- Tyrion doesnt want a Whore, he wants a Wife, but since no woman is likely to be willing (and any who are would probably not be accepted by his father), he has to make due. Once he actually GETs a wife of course, she wants nothing to do with him, so he continues pretending with Shae.

So, am I crazy, or does anyone else feel this way?

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Hrmm, I think Tyrion did whore, it's just when he came to find Shae he thought she resembled Tysha enough. Am I misremembering?

If not, that's a pretty good point, but I don't think the main gist of Tyrion's arc -- that he wants a wife (aka, a real intimate partnership) and kind of deluded himself into thinking Shae was one -- is hurt much by it.

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[quote name='House BleuSpade' post='1652863' date='Jan 18 2009, 01.39']Just a nitpick cause Tyrion is my (2nd) favorite character.[/quote]

i think he likes sex and knows he can only get it from a whore. he wasnt with any in the books but definately references himself having been with them. the reason he isnt with any others throughout the books its because hes either too damn busy or he has shae the whole time. and if you have shae, you don't need any other whores.

i'm much more bothered by the ned & jaime scene.

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There are numerous mentions [i]by Tyrion[/i] of his whoring, and many of them are internal dialogue which makes it unlikely that he's lying about it. For example, when Bronn brings him Shae, Tyrion recalls that the man who used to sort out whores for him didn't always tell them what to expect and so forth. So, I think that scene is canon.

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When Jaime jokes that Tyrion goes to the Wall because he wants to take the black, Tyroin says something like "it´d make whores from Casterly Rock to Dorne cry", so it´s established oficially, by his own mouth and very early on. Also, it seems to me that the whorehouse scene is set to establish the closeness between brothers and fuel some witty oneliners more than to show Tyrion´s habits.
There are several important themes in AGOT that are mentioned frequently but only in internal monologues. Jaime´s fondness of Tyrion is one (being his only nice quality at that point, it´s pretty strange and therefore relevant). Lannister´s backstory at the Rebellion is another. Jaime´s Kingslayer fame needs to be established pretty soon, but no man ever calls him that to his face in the novels (as long as he´s in position of power, anyway). Ned is the only character around that can get away with it (hence the Jaime/Ned conversation that wasn´t in the books, IMO).
Be ready for many more changes, by the way. They won´t take the scripts directly form the pages, you know. And it´s a good thing; what works on paper often does not work on screen.

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Tyrion whores around a lot, it's well established in the books. Shae is not the normal situation for him, he convinced himself that she might actually be in love with him and so he's actually monogamous with her. It's very sad, he wants to be loved, maybe really was once loved with his former wife, but is now very damaged by all he's been through. To satisfy his needs he whores around as much as possible, but he's really just looking for a woman to love him.

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[quote name='Wolf Rain' post='1653085' date='Jan 19 2009, 06.29']When Jaime jokes that Tyrion goes to the Wall because he wants to take the black, Tyroin says something like "it´d make whores from Casterly Rock to Dorne cry", so it´s established oficially, by his own mouth and very early on.[/quote]

That is a line spoken in jest, so it could be confirmation of his own past whoring ways, or merely a cynical quip about an undeserved repuation.

The internal dialogue mentioned above re Bronn's service as pimp in comparison to previous people who served in that capacity is more infomrative about Tyrion's true past.

The scene is a quick and easy way to establish a [negative] first impression about Tyrion which will, of course, be gradually subverted as the audience gets to know the him better.

I also think the extra Jaime / Ned scene is quite fine, as long as it is played right.

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[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1654524' date='Jan 19 2009, 17.59']I also think the extra Jaime / Ned scene is quite fine, as long as it is played right.[/quote]
It's not a bad idea for the scene, but the dialogue...meh.

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[quote name='Brude' post='1653107' date='Jan 18 2009, 18.09']Shae is not the normal situation for him, he convinced himself that she might actually be in love with him and so he's actually monogamous with her.[/quote]

Not sure even about that one, as I may have misremembered but wasn't Tyrion also having at least one Chataya's girls on the side - Alalaya her daughter? Alalaya was certainly involved enough with Tyrion that Cersai thought her worth kidnapping to use against him.

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[quote name='Tom O'Sevens' post='1654633' date='Jan 19 2009, 19.44']Not sure even about that one, as I may have misremembered but wasn't Tyrion also having at least one Chataya's girls on the side - Alalaya her daughter? Alalaya was certainly involved enough with Tyrion that Cersai thought her worth kidnapping to use against him.[/quote]
No, he was pretending to see Alayaya, and I think she was was even very willing (flirtatious at the least), but he was not sleeping with her. He would sneak out of Alayaya's room and then to Shae's manse.

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[quote name='Brude' post='1654874' date='Jan 20 2009, 14.12']No, he was pretending to see Alayaya, and I think she was was even very willing (flirtatious at the least), but he was not sleeping with her. He would sneak out of Alayaya's room and then to Shae's manse.[/quote]

Yes, Tyrion has been remarkably committed since he met Shae: he didn't even touch his wife (!) - let alone a prostitute.

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[quote name='Paxter' post='1654890' date='Jan 20 2009, 00.41']Yes, Tyrion has been remarkably committed since he met Shae: he didn't even touch his wife (!) - let alone a prostitute.[/quote]

SPOILER: Yeah, but mostly that was...
...just out of a pretty strong sense of pity and sympathy for Sansa. He was quite ready to go at it on their wedding night, but once he realized how she was handling it he just couldn't go there.

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Tyrion's devotion to Shae always seemed to me like an exception to his general behaviour. I surmised that since he was no longer surrounded by his father or brother, he could play marriage all he wanted while acting as the Hand. Tywin even goes as far to explicitly tell him not to bring his whore (Shae) to the Red Keep, nor to visit any whores in King's Landing. Plus, now that I remember, near the end of ASOS, Tyrion wonders what the whore houses are like in the Free Cities, and mentions to himself that he's likely to spend a lot time in them.

So yea, Tyrion was a filthy boy.

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[quote name='The Anti-Targ' post='1654524' date='Jan 19 2009, 23.59']The scene is a quick and easy way to establish a [negative] first impression about Tyrion which will, of course, be gradually subverted as the audience gets to know the him better.[/quote]
Why on Earth negative? We live in a society liberal enough for whorehouses not to be taboo, and whoring not a filthy thing by definition. If done right, the scene can have the audience rolling on the floor with laughter: both characters involved have a gift for witty one-liners. It also can be the counterweight to the solemnity of Starks at Winterfell.

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Yeah, I don't see Tyrion's whoring as giving the audience an initially negative view of the character. Who would hold whoring against a dwarf? If anything, viewers will simply see it as par for the course at HBO. Sex and prostitution have all taken center stage in True Blood, Rome, Deadwood, Carnivale, and Sopranos.

As far as whether Tyrion's "relationship: with Shae was out of the ordinary for him, I think he always behaves that way with his prostitutes. In real life, it's called the "Girlfriend Experience" or "GFE" and it's very common. I used to search out porn and prostitution sites for a web filter company, and believe me, just about every prostitute on the web advertises the quality of her GFE. With Shae, the GFE was simply allowed to continue far longer than a simple trip to the brothel, and Shae was uncommonly convincing in her role.

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[quote name='Matarreyes' post='1655955' date='Jan 21 2009, 13.02']Why on Earth negative? We live in a society liberal enough for whorehouses not to be taboo, and whoring not a filthy thing by definition. If done right, the scene can have the audience rolling on the floor with laughter: both characters involved have a gift for witty one-liners. It also can be the counterweight to the solemnity of Starks at Winterfell.[/quote]

[quote name='Oorag' post='1657175' date='Jan 22 2009, 09.23']Yeah, I don't see Tyrion's whoring as giving the audience an initially negative view of the character. Who would hold whoring against a dwarf? If anything, viewers will simply see it as par for the course at HBO. Sex and prostitution have all taken center stage in True Blood, Rome, Deadwood, Carnivale, and Sopranos.[/quote]

You are interpretting "negative" in a rather narrow and moralistic way. If I meant evil, morally bankrupt, shyphillitic little dwarf I would have said so.

You don't need to think whoring is immoral or wrong or evil or taboo to form a negative fist impression about someone who you first encounter lounging in a whorehouse. You can simply form the opinion that the person (particuarly when they are a member of the nobility) is merely someone who spends all his time, and family's money, on frivolity and does not take seriously his social responsibilities as a member of the nobility. A negative perception can merely be having low expectations of the person, or that the person is rather superficial, why bring questions of sexual morality into it?

It will all depend on how the scene is scripted and directed, but it seems an ideal way to make the audience think there is less to Tyrion than there really is (i.e. a negative first impression). An extra scene is unnecessary to establish Tyrion's whoring past, and people don't just throw scenes in [s]movies[/s] TV shows just for the hell of it.

[quote name='Brude']It's not a bad idea for the scene, but the dialogue...meh.[/quote]
I didn't read the script, just the bit saying there was an extra Jaime/Ned scene at Winterfell. If the script is bad and it doesn't come off well I hope the editing team will have the good sense to cut it out and leave it for the deleted scenes on the DVD.

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None of the added scenes mentioned in the summary bothered me in the slightest. The only thing that did is that apparently they're cutting the part where Waymer Royce comes back as a wight. It's a great "Holy shit!" moment and is very cinematic if you ask me. It makes me wonder if they're deciding to cut the wights out completely or if they want to keep that secret until later on in the series.

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[quote name='freakinmayhew' post='1658885' date='Jan 23 2009, 14.23']None of the added scenes mentioned in the summary bothered me in the slightest. The only thing that did is that apparently they're cutting the part where Waymer Royce comes back as a wight. It's a great "Holy shit!" moment and is very cinematic if you ask me. It makes me wonder if they're deciding to cut the wights out completely or if they want to keep that secret until later on in the series.[/quote]


I didn't realise they were getting to the wight scene in the pilot, must have missed that bit in the pilot script summary. Or have there been leaks about screenplays for subsequent episodes?

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