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Bakker VII: fens, bogs, dens and shades of death


lokisnow

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[quote name='Ran' post='1667139' date='Jan 29 2009, 11.44']I thought we know exactly why he believes that the Outside exists: it's because he's fulfilled prophecies written thousands of years before his birth and, more notably, he managed to prophesize something that he never intended (the bit about the Shrial knights, right?).

This is an absolute impossibility according to Dûnyain teaching, a complete break from one of the foundational tenets of their philosophy. The only explanation, as he can see it, is that Outside, cause and effect don't work the same, which is what the philosophers and theologians say; but not just that: this realm of subjectivity can touch and change the world in ways well beyond what any one man or sorceror can do.[/quote]

All true.
Dunyain philosophy shredded - check.
Some kind of more-than-natural agencies/forces at work - check.
Prophecies kindasorta fulfilled; unexplained phenomena in need of explanation - check

But I still don't see how you or Kelhus get from here to a moral universe in which souls are saved and damned.
There are a lot of possible ways to explain these phenomena. Better yet - one could leave them unexplained until one had more to go on. This is a complete failure of imagination and critical thinking on Kelhus's part. Which is fine if he is simply nuts. But I get the feeling that Bakker wants to have it both ways - that he is both nuts *and* correct in his assumptions.

[quote name='Ran' post='1667139' date='Jan 29 2009, 11.44']He was obviously right about Moënghus, though, so what's the problem?[/quote]

Well, I don't see Moenghus jumping to any of these conclusions without more precise evidence. The Dunyain can wrap the rest of mankind around their proverbial fingers because they are superduper critical thinkers who don't delude themselves. I would expect Moenghus to believe in damnation when he had definite evidence of its existence. (We haven't seen anything remotely like this). And I would expect Kelhus to assume that this is the way Moenghus thinks.
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[quote name='Finn']But I still don't see how you or Kelhus get from here to a moral universe in which souls are saved and damned.
There are a lot of possible ways to explain these phenomena. Better yet - one could leave them unexplained until one had more to go on. This is a complete failure of imagination and critical thinking on Kelhus's part. Which is fine if he is simply nuts. But I get the feeling that Bakker wants to have it both ways - that he is both nuts *and* correct in his assumptions.[/quote]

If the holy scriptures of Bakkerworld are right about so many other things, why would they be wrong about this? Yes, Kellhus [i]could[/i] assume that invisible pink unicorns did it, but why would he? And leaving it unexplained is absolutely not an option for someone who has been taught to seek to understand and control everything for as long as he's been alive.

[quote name='Finn']Well, I don't see Moenghus jumping to any of these conclusions without more precise evidence.[/quote]

Moenghus doesn't have to "jump" to any conclusion, but it is Kellhus' believe that sooner or later, his father would come to believe in the Outside and the reality of damnation that awaited him (and all other Dûnyain) after death and at that point he [i]would [/i]start to oppose Kellhus. Better to nip things in the bud and get the patricide over with.
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[quote]Right. My issue is with Kelhus as a character and this decision he makes. He kills his father - pretty big deal. He kills one of the most powerful men in Earwa - pretty big deal. He kills a potential ally -and an incredibly strong one at that - in any fight with the Consult - pretty big deal.[/quote]Yes, but Kellhus doesn't need to realize that the outside has an afterlife or that the God is real to know that moe would oppose him in any of his endeavors. He can see the easy probability that the dunyain and the consult will ally. At the very least, kell can see Moe will oppose his wishes, and that's really enough. He doesn't need an ally who has almost no magical power. He certainly doesn't need one who can influence men the way he can, but do so against his wishes.
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The point isn't even anything about whether you're damned or not. It's that the Dûnyain tenets cannot survive the breaking of rational cause and effect, and the influence of the Outside does just that. So, the Dûnyain will want to shut the world to the Outside ... and that's what the Inchorôi and Consult want to do, so...
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[quote name='Arthmail' post='1666674' date='Jan 29 2009, 05.45']Shryke: My point is that there are millions of people that have claimed to know Jesus in some way, and even if you were to take a handful of dudes that knew him (i think theres 12, right? haha), you wouldn't be able to emulate his mannerisms.

It doesn't matter that hes only been dead a year or so. It could be a fucking day and there would be no way to adopt those same mannerisms so effectively that Achamian gets all mushy and weepy like he always does.[/quote]

Why? Why is it impossible? In the context of the book, it's perfectly plausible. All Kellhus has to do (and he actually says he does this in the book) is observe Akka's reactions to various changes in expression/tone/delivery/etc and figure out which ones push his buttons. Then he just adopts those mannerisms when he wants to provoke certain reactions.

When he wants to, he laughs the same way Inrau did, or tilts his head a bit to the side when asking a question the way Inrau did or whatever. There's nothing implausible about it.

Unless of course you can't accept that Kellhus would have that much control over his own features and behavior. In which case, you've basically thrown out one of the core premises of the book (which would be odd considering your professed enjoyment of Dune)

[quote]Yes, i have a major problem with Kellhus. He's fucking boring. Not one of the worst main characters in a book that i have read, but certainly in the top ten. Considering that the entire series revolves around him it makes it a problem.[/quote]

I just don't get what your problem with Kellhus is. You keep just using the term "boring".
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I can see Kellhus as boring in the sense that there is nothing that remotely really challenges him. I don't really see it like that because I don't see the focus of the book as Kellhus; I see it as Akka. Kellhus is a force of nature; it's more interesting to see how the world is shaped by him rather than how he is shaped by the world. Some of his stuff is interesting too - the metaphysics of the world, the philosophy of the dunyain. But at the end of the day, Kellhus is literally a force of God.
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But it's not quite that either. Kellhus DOES change. In fact, the changes we see in the prologue and follow there continue throughout the series (right up until the end of TWP I'd say).

There's no challenges as the other characters would understand them that stop him, but their are certainly challenges he faces. It's just that those challenges are often seen only by him.

The whole Circumfix thing at the end of TWP is his desperate gamble to overcome the challenge of conquering the Holy War.

Beyond that, there's his continual challenge to figure out where his father is, what he's gonna do when he finds him and WTF has he been caught up in.
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Well, those aren't really challenges. They've all been set up by Moe. It's basically a maze with one path that he can take. It's not hard, and it never really seems hard. The circumfix is maybe the only time where we're not sure what's going to happen - but it all works out for him anyway.

Kellhus doesn't have a lot of setbacks or vulnerabilities, and that can make him pretty boring as a main character.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1667376' date='Jan 29 2009, 17.29']Well, those aren't really challenges. They've all been set up by Moe. It's basically a maze with one path that he can take. It's not hard, and it never really seems hard. The circumfix is maybe the only time where we're not sure what's going to happen - but it all works out for him anyway.

Kellhus doesn't have a lot of setbacks or vulnerabilities, and that can make him pretty boring as a main character.[/quote]

He does have setbacks, they just aren't major in the way we think of them usually. The Circumfix (or rather, winning the support of the higher ups) is actually a huge obstacle for him to overcome. It's just one no one else knows he's shooting for.

And yes, part of the idea is that it's a path he's following. As he puts it, he's walking on "conditioned ground". He's stepping into a role prepared for him ahead of time.

And at the same time, he doesn't fit ti dead on. The point of the ending with Moenghus is that the journey has changed him in ways no one anticipated. The Circumfix, the moment he couldn't predict past and the moment Moenghus couldn't get either, "breaks" him. It changes something in him. Or is the culmination of that change.


But I think it's interesting you mention that he doesn't have alot of setbacks or vulnerabilities. It's very much like the old cliched messiah farm-boy thing. He comes from somewhere distant and rockets to the top of the food chain and saves the world. But that's what it's supposed to be like, superficially. And while it's true on the surface, underneath he's something far more complex and not everything is quite as it seems.
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I tend to side with Kal and others. He's not there for reader identification. He's moving the plot along, he's infodumping, and .... yeah. He's more interesting as an _idea_ than as a character, if that makes sense.
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[quote name='Ran' post='1667398' date='Jan 29 2009, 17.51']I tend to side with Kal and others. He's not there for reader identification. He's moving the plot along, he's infodumping, and .... yeah. He's more interesting as an _idea_ than as a character, if that makes sense.[/quote]

Oh, I don't really think we're supposed to indentify with him (that's Akka's job).

But he's not a Force of Nature. Not completely. He changes, he thinks, he hits snags and then overcomes them. He's still a character.
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Everybody that dislikes the PoN always hones in on hating Kellhus and the philosophic wankery. But I've always felt that even if you disliked those (admittedly important) elements of the story, there was still plenty of goodness to go around. You got great characterization, rich prose, a complex background history, a cool magic system that is at once supremely powerful and vulnerable, a living world, and interesting tale of war, political and religious intrigue etc. The rest of it is good enough to make up for Kell and all that, I would think.

It's more like R-Rated, hardcore Tolkien for today, than even ASOIAF.
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1667196' date='Jan 29 2009, 12.29']If the holy scriptures of Bakkerworld are right about so many other things, why would they be wrong about this? Yes, Kellhus [i]could[/i] assume that invisible pink unicorns did it, but why would he?[/quote]

He is essentially assuming invisible pink unicorns did it, which is my problem. What exactly were these things that the holy scriptures were so "right" about anyway?

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1667196' date='Jan 29 2009, 12.29']And leaving it unexplained is absolutely not an option for someone who has been taught to seek to understand and control everything for as long as he's been alive.[/quote]

I read Kelhus and the Dunyain entirely differently. They may want to master situations, but this has nothing to do with certainty. In fact, it is their ability not to be tied to down to man-made certainties that - in part - leads to their ability to dominate others.


At any rate, "uncle." I give. No one else seems concerned by this so I'll write it off as an idiosyncrasy of my reading of the novel. :smoking:
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Well, obviously he is a character. But he's not interesting _as a character_, at least to me. He's a walking, talking plot device. He's interesting as, "Here's my idea -- what if a guy manipulates forces to make himself a false prophet... and then, what if maybe, just maybe, he's fulfilling a real prophecy? How does he do these things, and how does he end up like that? Discuss!"

It's a very rich idea. Doesn't mean the character is equally rich.

I will grant that he obviously changes. He learns, he observes, he manipulates, and maybe he starts going mad, or he starts going religious.

But still. It's not interesting that Kellhus is doing it (again, to me). It's interesting that it's happening, but it is for me a kind of academic interest. "What does it mean for Kellhus that the gods are speaking to him?" is not the question that that leads to. It's, "What does this say about the relation between the world and the Outside?"

Chirios,

Yes, that's very interesting, but the problem _there_ is the fact that he's simply too good a liar. There was practically no challenge for him until nearly the very end. Even the existence of the Consult and the skin-spies didn't throw too many spanners in the works.
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I still think it's far more interesting to see what is the reaction of those to Kellhus rather than Kellhus.

Another way to say it is this: Kellhus holds very few surprises. We know he's going to be the savior. We know he's going to be the 'hero', in the sense of being the Aspect Emperor. If it weren't ordained by moe to start with, it's the general pattern of the book.

And when we know what's going to happen, there's not a lot of interest except, perhaps, in the specific details.

But with Akka? Akka is the unknown. Esme is the unknown. Cnaiur is the great unknown. They're the compelling acts of betrayal, the twists in the plot. They're the prime movers. It's interesting that while Kellhus claims to be trying to be Conditioned, he is walking the path that was set down by Moe (as Moe knew he would) - but Akka and Cnaiur both break free of their programming and do something totally against what Had Come Before.
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I think the most interseting part of that is that Akka is, in many ways, the inheritor of Cnauir's legacy. The end of TTT is like Cnauir coming to infect him with the seed of doubt. With the ability to see through Kellhus to what he really is.
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Well, remember that Moenghus sucks at the Psuhke precisely because Dunyain are essentially emotionless and pasionless. Their like Terminators. They have a goal and they acheive it and whatever stands in their way is crushed or usurped.
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[quote name='Finn']What exactly were these things that the holy scriptures were so "right" about anyway?[/quote]

Good point, Kellhus rarely quotes scripture, and the Tusk just chronicles events up to the beginning of Far Antiquity anyway.

[quote name='Finn']I read Kelhus and the Dunyain entirely differently. They may want to master situations, but this has nothing to do with certainty. In fact, it is their ability not to be tied to down to man-made certainties that - in part - leads to their ability to dominate others.[/quote]

But they are tied down to man-made certainties, the certainties that are the axioms of Dûnyain philosophy to be exact. I've reread the confrontation between Kellhus and his father again and that is what it comes down to: Kellhus, for reasons he does not entirely understand, has come to reject the basic principle that what comes before always determines what comes after, while Moenghus in thirty years has not found any evidence against this. It's this fundamental disagreement which leads to Moenghus believing that Kellhus has gone mad, which by itself already means that he has to move against his son and take over the Holy War himself.
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1667889' date='Jan 29 2009, 22.47']I've reread the confrontation between Kellhus and his father again and that is what it comes down to: Kellhus, for reasons he does not entirely understand, has come to reject the basic principle that what comes before always determines what comes after, while Moenghus in thirty years has not found any evidence against this. It's this fundamental disagreement which leads to Moenghus believing that Kellhus has gone mad, which by itself already means that he has to move against his son and take over the Holy War himself.[/quote]

Yeah, I think I'd forgotten Moenghus's almost immediate diagnosis of madness. Kelhus pretty much had to take him out at that point. There's no way someone like Moe lets a deranged Dunyain wandering around messing up his plans.
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