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Bakker VII: fens, bogs, dens and shades of death


lokisnow

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[quote name='Ran' post='1667444' date='Jan 29 2009, 15.25']Well, obviously he is a character. But he's not interesting _as a character_, at least to me. He's a walking, talking plot device. He's interesting as, "Here's my idea -- what if a guy manipulates forces to make himself a false prophet... and then, what if maybe, just maybe, he's fulfilling a real prophecy? How does he do these things, and how does he end up like that? Discuss!"

It's a very rich idea. Doesn't mean the character is equally rich.

I will grant that he obviously changes. He learns, he observes, he manipulates, and maybe he starts going mad, or he starts going religious.

But still. It's not interesting that Kellhus is doing it (again, to me). It's interesting that it's happening, but it is for me a kind of academic interest. "What does it mean for Kellhus that the gods are speaking to him?" is not the question that that leads to. It's, "What does this say about the relation between the world and the Outside?"[/quote]

This is exactly my reaction to Kelhus. And it's interesting that this could serve as either a defense or an indictment of Kelhus's role in the series.

Kelhus: bland character, interesting MacGuffin.
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and I still don't understand why the Dunyain care enough about names to keep a naming tradition like Anasurimbor around, or why they would value a father-son bond/relationship. seems counterintuitive to their philosophy.
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[quote name='lockesnow' post='1667976' date='Jan 30 2009, 09.11']and I still don't understand why the Dunyain care enough about names to keep a naming tradition like Anasurimbor around, or why they would value a father-son bond/relationship. seems counterintuitive to their philosophy.[/quote]


Well, Dunyain are committed to eugenics, so I would think ancestry is quite importatnt to them.
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[quote name='lockesnow']why they would value a father-son bond/relationship.[/quote]

Is their any indication they do? It's not like there is any real bond between Kellhus and his father. Moenghus was exiled 30 years ago, Kellhus isn't that much older than that.

Btw the Anasûrimbor line, at the very least, could be important because they apparently have Nonman ancestors (the first king of Kuniüri lived to a ripe old age of 170 or thereabouts). How that works out with the timeline regarding the Womb-Plague I'm not quite sure, though.
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I'll give the series another go when i get through the pile that i have. But as for "boring" not being a great criticism, i fail to understand how its not within context of what i have said before. I've seen shades of Paul Atriedes in him, and he strikes me as entirely too perfect. Many seem to disagree, but like Ran says, he really is boring as a character. Gilgamesh was a great story, but a boring character.

We'll see. I'll be back to discuss in about a month or so. Chow for now brown cow.
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1667987' date='Jan 30 2009, 03.36']Is their any indication they do? It's not like there is any real bond between Kellhus and his father. Moenghus was exiled 30 years ago, Kellhus isn't that much older than that.

Btw the Anasûrimbor line, at the very least, could be important because they apparently have Nonman ancestors (the first king of Kuniüri lived to a ripe old age of 170 or thereabouts). How that works out with the timeline regarding the Womb-Plague I'm not quite sure, though.[/quote]

The womb plague predates the arrival of Man in Earwa, but it was a male Nonman who knocked up a human women anyway, so it doesn't matter.
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I found Kellhus to be, by far, the most interesting aspect of PoN; the other parts of the book were less impressive. The world-building was nice and gritty and had some good ideas, but it was also a bog-standard Tolkien ripoff (with orcs and elves, and even a Mordor clone ffs!) with the crusades stapled across it. The characterization was ambitious, but it lacked any kind of subtlety and characters went from one emotional extreme to the next, making everything feel extremely melodramatic.

OTOH, I can also understand why people may say that Kellhus is boring. He is just so super-powered that there just isn't any room for proper conflict. His powers are so great that the creation and resolution comes off as being completely in the hands of the author, and not as an unavoidable effect of the situation at hand. In other words: there is no conflict situation where one solution and outcome is more probable than any other, since Bakker has given Kellhus such powers that there really isn't anything he could do that could surprise the reader. Bakker also has a tendency to make it too easy for Kellhus in other ways: from the beginning I for instance expected there to be an epic showdown between Cnaiur and Kellhus, since Cnaiur seemed to be the only one who saw through Kellhus. Did this happen? No, instead Bakker undermined Cnaiur at every step of the way and made him nothing more than a minor nuisance for Kellhus. There are also many other examples where Kellhus just seems to get a too easy journey.

The basic problem with PoN is that a) it is just too long for the amount of drama in it and b) that is only seem to be a prelude to the proper conflict. If it had been just the first book in a bigger series, it would have worked much better, but as a trilogy of it's own it sadly falls short.

ETA: I may sound more harsh that I really am here. I read through the series in one go back in december and I really enjoyed it. The last book was something of a disappointment though and I feel that as a whole, the trilogy didn't deliver what I initially had hoped it would.
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[quote name='Shryke']The womb plague predates the arrival of Man in Earwa, but it was a male Nonman who knocked up a human women anyway, so it doesn't matter.[/quote]

The Womb-Plague predates the arrival of the Norsirai, Ketyai, Satyiothi and Scylvendi in Eärwa, but the Emwama were already around, mostly as slaves to the Nonmen it seems. They were slaughtered by the four invading tribes. Where was the mention of a child of a Nonman father and human mother from? All I can find is a mention of an opposite pairing, which obviously happened before the Womb-Plague and the man in question must thus have been of the Emwama.
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[quote name='Finn' post='1667431' date='Jan 29 2009, 23.18']He is essentially assuming invisible pink unicorns did it, which is my problem. What exactly were these things that the holy scriptures were so "right" about anyway?[/quote]

Khellus begins to believe that the world might influence the Outside when they cross the Plains of Maengecca. The ground begins to spit up bones; because here, mankind defeated the No-God. This suggested to Khellus that perhaps the outside could seep into the world; and the world could influence the outside, given the right circumstances. I don't think Khellus genuinly believes he is a prophet. He is attacking the Consult because they want to slaughter all of mankind; something which Khellus believes will close the world to the Outside; but he is changing facts of scripture. For example: he sees no logical reason why the Gods would say men are better than women; he see's that men desire women; so he comes to the conclusion that men have delibrately weakened women so that they can have better access to what they desire.
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Going back to the issue of Kellhus immitating Inrau so well, when we are told Kellhus is doing Inrau, is it always from Akka's POV or do we have a POV of Kellhus thinking about immitating Inrau specifically? I can't remember off the top of my head.

If it is all from Akka's POV, then Kellhus doesn't even have to have known that Inrau, specifically, ever existed. He just has to know that when he smiles this way or holds his head like that, it creates an emotional response in Akka.

If we do have a Kellhus POV saying he intentionally immitated Inrau, then... I've got nothin'. Well, other than some off camera conversation where Akka said "Wow, Kellhus, you look just like my beloved former student Inrau when you do that."
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1668057' date='Jan 30 2009, 12.34']Where was the mention of a child of a Nonman father and human mother from?[/quote]


[url="http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?p=4910&highlight=&sid=61e88f79a090ab01fd7eac3e19d8b2f5"]http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?...d7eac3e19d8b2f5[/url]

Check "Rape of Omindalea" in this thread.
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BoG, thanks. It sounds vaguely familiar, but I must have skipped over it on my recent quest for knowledge of Bakkerworld.

So there's our two unions of [s]Elves[/s] Nonmen and men. Maybe Kellhus (or one of his descendents) gets to hook up with a descendent of the other line?:P
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1668418' date='Jan 30 2009, 19.18']Maybe Kellhus (or one of his descendents) gets to hook up with a descendent of the other line?[/quote]
Finally this fandom gets a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom)"]shipping[/url] subculture! Put me in the Mekmenet camp!
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Nearing the end of TWP (I know, "stay away from these threads" haha), I've come to agree with others that say Kellhus is more interesting as an idea rather than a character. I'm much more interested in how Akka, Cnauir, et al. will deal with the power of Kellhus than Kellhus himself.

[quote name='Jacen' post='1667426' date='Jan 29 2009, 17.15']The rest of it is good enough to make up for Kell and all that, I would think.[/quote]

But I find this true, too. Everything else makes up for his faults as a character. My only other complaint is that with the way Bakker switches between third-person limited point of view to a summarizing third-person objective (ala Silmarillion or the Bible), the imagery suffers for me. Those summarized sections read more like a History channel special than a dramatic film.

I can much better picture ASoIaF's world than PoN's. As an example, King's Landing's battle was quite vivid, while Anwurat's battle was Cnauir et al. fighting between gray buildings, over gray fields, with gray skies.

[quote name='divisionerror' post='1668334' date='Jan 30 2009, 11.01']Going back to the issue of Kellhus immitating Inrau so well, when we are told Kellhus is doing Inrau, is it always from Akka's POV or do we have a POV of Kellhus thinking about immitating Inrau specifically?[/quote]

All that said, keeping in mind that Kellhus can basically read people's minds through their facial movements I found this moment believable. The situation is portrayed through both POV's in the books, though possibly only Kellhus' when on top of the "pyramid." Kellhus has discussed Inrau with Akka and has remembered Akka's features whenever he thinks about his student. So, whenever he laughed a certain way, tilted his head a certain way, etc. Kellhus could see which of his mannerisms brought Inrau up in Akka's mind. I don't think it was so much that Kellhus copied Inrau to a T, but found those same mannerisms that reminded Akka of his former student. Thus, he used those mannerisms to his advantage. Keep in mind that when he's talking, listening, or doing [i]anything[/i], Kellhus is also reading a mind of the face he is concentrating on.

That's not to say his ability to do that doesn't frustrate me, but that's not the point under discussion. I found it plausible considering all the other people he's been able to manipulate by use of their faces.

I'm on the same boat with Ran, myself. I'm enjoying the series, but I doubt I'll buy the books for rereads. Also, I can say that I'm nearly done with TWP, but couldn't finish the first chapter in Sword of Shannara for the life of me.
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On the subject of Kellhus imitating someone he'd never met, i don't think it'd be all that hard. There's no doubt that Akka would have shared details about Irau. Once Kellh us would know his basic history, it would be simple trial and error to figure out what he'd have generally been like. This seems no more fantastic than his ability to read the intentions of a myriad of other people after only making a passing acquaintance. Or catching arrows for that matter.

But on a different subject, am i the only one who find the No-God to be the most interesting character? Even Aurax and Aurang are more interesting to me than anything else mentioned in the series so far (i haven't gotten my hands on JE yet, :thumbsdown: ). I really hope there's more info on them in the JE!
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Akka doesn't have to have described anything about Inrau. All Kellhus has to do is do slight changes in intonation, expression and speaking and see how Akka reacts. Kellhus doesn't even know why Akka reacts that way (though he's probably able to guess). All he needs to know is that Akka does react to it.
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[quote name='firqorescu' post='1668021' date='Jan 30 2009, 05.09']Bakker also has a tendency to make it too easy for Kellhus in other ways: from the beginning I for instance expected there to be an epic showdown between Cnaiur and Kellhus, since Cnaiur seemed to be the only one who saw through Kellhus. Did this happen? No, instead Bakker undermined Cnaiur at every step of the way and made him nothing more than a minor nuisance for Kellhus.[/quote]

There was an epic showdown of sorts. It just wasn't the kind you expect (big sword fight).

In TDTCB Kellhus quickly realises that Cnauir KNOWS what he's up to and is watching for it. He's baicalyl takent he "Whatever Kellhus says to do, don't do it!" approach. And Kellhus can't seem to control him. So he attacks him from another angle, Serwe.

The big showdown isn't a physical fight, it's a ... battle of wills. It goes down at the battle of ... something. The one in Shigek where they cross the river and take down the fortress. Cnauir capitulates to Kellhus in exchange for Serwe.
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What Kal says. Akka was extremely fond of Inrau and his appetite for learning, his innocence, and so on. Kellhus will naturally use this against him, without necessarily knowing why Akka responds to particular combinations of tones and expression as he does. In the end, Akka will think, "He reminds me of Inrau," and Kellhus will think, "He is being Conditioned."
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1668554' date='Jan 30 2009, 21.39']There was an epic showdown of sorts. It just wasn't the kind you expect (big sword fight).

In TDTCB Kellhus quickly realises that Cnauir KNOWS what he's up to and is watching for it. He's baicalyl takent he "Whatever Kellhus says to do, don't do it!" approach. And Kellhus can't seem to control him. So he attacks him from another angle, Serwe.

The big showdown isn't a physical fight, it's a ... battle of wills. It goes down at the battle of ... something. The one in Shigek where they cross the river and take down the fortress. Cnauir capitulates to Kellhus in exchange for Serwe.[/quote]
I wasn't expecting a big sword fight; I was expecting a fight that contained a minimum of tension and had a purpose beyond showing how awesome Kellhus is. Cnaiur is never even close to being able to challenge Kellhus (at least not in the last two books) and that feels like really wasted potential.
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