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Bakker VII: fens, bogs, dens and shades of death


lokisnow

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[quote name='Brady' post='1669577' date='Jan 31 2009, 16.41']Cnauir got enough badass fight scenes to satisfy me. My favourite was Joktha (sp) when he opened a can of whupass on Conphas. "He lacked the arms for the swazond he earned that night" or something similar.[/quote]

But wait, it wasn't just a can of whupass, he also anally raped Conphas. Now that's hardcore.
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In the sexism thread, Bakker's being discussed very heavily. I figure we should bring it here.

[quote]OK, I have yet to see any indication that women are _more valued_ in Bakker's world. My impression was that they were valued about as much as in those "contemporary" RL societies that were particularly patriarchal and opressive. Also, the Great Plague in Europe actually resulted in better position and greater freedoms for the opressed. By analogy, I fail to see why situation of women after the Womb Plague should worsen rather than improve, compared to RL history.[/quote]As Kellhus explains - because women are valued, they are marginalized. They are turned into a commodity. You don't want to give the commodity power; you want to make sure it has as little power as possible so you can obtain and control it.

With the womb-plague, women became an incredibly important commodity. They were absolutely valued. And in order for them to protect this value, men made increasingly large laws against them. No reading, no positions of power, specific rules as a wife, etc, etc. Making them unable to study magic is just yet another one, and possibly the most obvious; giving a woman the power of the Few when you're trying to control both the power of women and the power of the Few is doubly painful.
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I don't see how the Womb-Plague made them any more or less valuable to the society than they already were.[b] No[/b] women could have children, and to the people at that time they had no idea if the plague would ever end. So it wasn't like they knew "Oh someday this will be over so we need to make sure we keep our women alive for that blessed day". They were protecting and shackling women to specific roles long before the womb plague, just like on our own planet, for various reasons.

Besides all that, tjhe plague ended up lasting only ten or so years if I recall correctly, with the defeat of the No-God. I doubt thats long enough to have made a major impact in their role in society.

Women in Bakker's world seem to have the same relative place and importance they did in our own Medieval world.
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Women couldn't have children, but quite a few died in childbirth from the No-God's coming. That was one of the problems; fewer women as a rule.

And it's clear from other books that women had a bigger role earlier and their roles and power actually seem to be reduced (at least from Judging Eye this is clear).

I think the impact of the No-God event can't be overstated enough. For 10 years humans believed they were going to be wiped off the planet. Every human on the planet at the time experienced first-hand the effects he had on the world. This isn't the sort of thing that disappears within a generation. It's the sort of thing that affects the population for millenia, is codified and ratified.

As to having the same power as in medieval times of our world, I'd disagree strongly. Our religions did not actively forbid women from reading. We certainly had more women in positions of high power at almost every moment.
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Quite a few women would have died in child birth anyway given their low level of tech. I don't remember reading anything about an increase in the death of women themselves during the womb plague...but that could be my mistake.

And yes, obviously the impact of the No-God was huge, but I question whether it had any effect on the status of women in their societies during the plague. They thought the world was coming to end. No women could have children. It looked like game over for the human race. I kinda doubt during an apocalyptic time like that the value of women increased. If anything it would have decreased. The world is coming to end, and women cannot have children, their primary function in that society. It would have been a time of chaos, a debauched free for all and women's status would have been equated to useless except for sexual gratification, before the ultimate end. That's why I think the Womb Plague would have lowered women's status as a long term historical impact.

As for the reading thing, is it stated that all women everywhere are forbidden to read? I thought that was only within the Nansur empire. As far as their status over time, I would think the women of the Ancient north did indeed have more power and higher liberties. The Norsirai nations are said to have been rich in wealth and learning, and I would think that the more opulent the society is the more chances there are for women to rise up the social ladder. The modern Three Seas nations do not approach that level of wealth, knowledge and the attendant liberality it brings.
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[quote]And yes, obviously the impact of the No-God was huge, but I question whether it had any effect on the status of women in their societies. They thought the world was coming to end. No women could have children. It looked like game over for the human race. I kinda doubt during a time like that the value of women increased. If anything it would have decreased. The world is coming to end and women cannot have children, their primary function in that society. It would have been a free for all and women's status would have been equated to useless except for sexual gratification before the ultimate end.[/quote]Right.

Now think about how valuable women would be after the No-God is gone. How so many of the men are killed or scarred by the war. How many families killed their wives and children to spare them from the horrors of the Consult. Women, at that moment, would be hugely valued. Especially if there aren't that many around for whatever reason, and especially if the womb plague actively damaged those in childbirth.
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Just to nitpick (and to avoid confusion) the Womb-Plague was the affliction that wiped out the female half of the Nonmen and is a separate event from the stillbirths caused by the No-God.

From the other thread:

[quote name='Maia']Sure, sure. But the Schoolmen do have strongholds and people serving them. Why on earth shouldn't they profit from shipping? RL Jew merchants, who shared a lot of the same limitations re: prejudice and perceived damnation did, after all. After making it through complete Aubrey and Maturin series last year, it seems to me that even a partial ability to control winds could have been priceless, where long-distance high-profit trade is concerned. Coupled with superior magical communication, it really would have been too good an opportunity for any RL organization to pass by.[/quote]

I think it is clear that the Schools use their magic for commercial purposes, how else would most of them (except for the Imperial Saik and the Scarlet Spires) survive? Now my personal fanwank is that, given their limited numbers, they focus on low profile but high profit services for the rich and powerful, instead of trying to become the most successful merchant marine on the Three Seas (which probably would draw the ire of their competitors, who in turn would lobby for those evil sorcerers to be wiped out for good).

[quote name='Maia']Sure, the Few are few, etc., but they do need to train their skills, don't they? Why can't they do so in a profitable way?[/quote]

But we know so little of how the Schools operate on a day to day basis. We only get limited insight into the Scarlet Spires and the Mandate, of one we only meet some of the highest ranking members of the organization, and the other one is the odd one out amongst the Schools anyway.

[quote name='Maia']By RL logic, I'd expect the Schoolmen to control something like Venice - an otherwise difficult to approach city-state, a hub of maritime trade, where their powers could be used to best advantage, both in commerce and in defence and where they'd be almost impossible to dislodge.[/quote]

Isn't that pretty much what Atyersus, the seat of the Mandate, is? And as you mentioned, the Scarlet Spires control High Ainon.
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[quote name='Nerdanel' post='1664624' date='Jan 27 2009, 17.43']The last thread we had some discussion about how good exactly Cnaiür is at fighting. In my current reread I found an excerpt to show that he is remarkably good.



Whew! So, even though Kellhus eventually wins, Cnaiür is able to hold his own pretty well and does better against Kellhus than, say, Mekeritrig. This implies that Cnaiür has a good chance of being better at sword fighting than Mekeritrig, which means that Cnaiür's very good indeed. This in turn implies that the Consult could still find him useful, which means that he still might be alive...

(By the way, Cnaiür's D&D character class SO is barbarian.)[/quote]

All this proves is that Cnaiür couldn't beat Kellhus. If you watch Troy (Or read about the fight) Achilles fights Hector. It's almost the exact same thing. Hector and Cnaiür are great (possibly the best) MORTAL fighters but Achilles who's mother is a godess and Kellhus who has been conditioned have advantages that mortal people simply cannot overcome in normal circumstances. The entire fight Kellhus tries to bait Cnaiür. His physical conditioning is so far superior that all he really needs to do is defend Cnaiür's attacks until he is exhausted, then take advantage.

As far as him being useful to the Consult I would agree 100% there. To see such a huge character of the first trilogy never show up and never have closure would be really tough.
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:rofl:

Okay...so what are arguing about now?


Yes, after the plague they would have been more valuable, but more valuable in the way of commodities and not valued for anything but their ability to breed. So: [i]plus ça change[/i], no?
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[quote]Yes, after the plague they would have been more valuable, but more valuable in the way of commodities and not valued for anything but their ability to breed. So: plus ça change, no?[/quote]Right. That's what I'm saying - that extra value, that extra commodity, makes their world more sexist than ours. The coming of the No-God sets up things like women not being allowed to read. Their whole society tries to commoditize them.

So they are valued - but not valued as human beings, but valued for their ability to continue the species.
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You guys are seriously confusing terms here.

The Womb-Plague is the "sickness" that struck the Non-men females after the Non-men allowed the Inchoroi to make them immortal. It killed all the females of the species.

The No-God, on the other hand, causes all children to be stillborn. This only applies to creatures with souls (men, non-men, inchoroi). This is most definitely NOT called the Womb-Plague.



Also, as for sorcerors being used for commercial purposes, remember that when they say The Few, they mean it. The largest School in the Three Seas has only about 120 sorcerors.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1671435' date='Feb 2 2009, 16.38']Also, as for sorcerors being used for commercial purposes, remember that when they say The Few, they mean it. The largest School in the Three Seas has only about 120 sorcerors.[/quote]True, but this is partially the result of a religious taboo against sorcery, which drastically lowers the potential pool. This seems to be one of the primary reasons why Kellhus seeks to remove this taboo from society.
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I also don't think that sorcerors really need to do this sort of thing for money. They appear by all accounts to be really well-off, even if they're not in favor. Just from their power, I would imagine; I would bet a lot of kings give them money to try and influence them.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1671526' date='Feb 2 2009, 17.54']I also don't think that sorcerors really need to do this sort of thing for money. They appear by all accounts to be really well-off, even if they're not in favor. Just from their power, I would imagine; I would bet a lot of kings give them money to try and influence them.[/quote]

They obviously must hire out for some thing.

And I'm failr certain the Mandate essentially rules the Island they are on.
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