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Bakker VII: fens, bogs, dens and shades of death


lokisnow

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I always imagined that the Gnosis and Anagogis (sp?) change reality in a brutal and artificial way whereas the Psukhe merely amplifies what's already there. The work of the Gnosis is described as geometrical patterns cutting through air etc. while for the description of the Psukhe flexible, water- and wavelike vocabulary is utilized.

The reason for this is that the Gnosis and the Anagogis are learned and used like a language. You in a way build a new reality when you utter sorcery. The Psukhe on the other hand requires empathy and intuition; you kind of feel the flow of the world around you and (by faith and conviction) push the waves in the direction you want them to go - thus you don't change reality in a permanent way. As a result of this, the Psukhe is relatively imprecise but given enough faith and intuition the pure force of it can be a match for the Gnosis.
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[quote name='Besselfunction' post='1716085' date='Mar 11 2009, 08.48']As a result of this, the Psukhe is relatively imprecise but given enough faith and intuition the pure force of it can be a match for the Gnosis.[/quote]

IIRC, it couldn't be. Body for body the Cishaurim were inferior even to Anagogics. OTOH, there were more of them (because they had families?) and they couldn't be detected by other Few unless they did some magic. Also, they had some neat technics. Nevertheless, I seem to remember that the Chorae could kill them too... which I really don't understand, since I was inclined to think that it was the Marks that made sorcerers vulnerable and they have none. Their state of damnation would seem to be in question as well.
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[quote name='Maia' post='1716576' date='Mar 11 2009, 17.27']IIRC, it couldn't be. Body for body the Cishaurim were inferior even to Anagogics. OTOH, there were more of them (because they had families?) and they couldn't be detected by other Few unless they did some magic. Also, they had some neat technics. Nevertheless, I seem to remember that the Chorae could kill them too... which I really don't understand, since I was inclined to think that it was the Marks that made sorcerers vulnerable and they have none. Their state of damnation would seem to be in question as well.[/quote]

Until it's explicitly stated (either within the novels or outside of the novels by Bakker himself), I would state that every sorcerer's state of damnation is in question.
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[quote name='Nerdanel' post='1715454' date='Mar 10 2009, 17.42']I think Moënghus orchestrated the attack on the Scarlet Spires as an early move in his plan to initiate a Holy War to unite the Three Seas. I think the attack was a suicide mission carried out by Moënghus's disciples without the Heresiarch's knowledge. When the Scarlet Spires then inevitably retaliated, the Cishaurim outside the conspiracy would then have seen the Scarlet Spires as the aggressors, bringing the two great factions into conflict that would have momentous consequences.[/quote]

It's possible that Moenghus did urge the Cisharim to attack the Scarlet Spires, but, as I recall from a recent reading of PoN, the actual reason was that the skin-spies were discovered and the Cisharim were outraged by this infilitration, and assumed that, of all the Schools, only the Scarlet Spires were both powerful and audacious enough to be the responsible party. But Moenghus could have the one who advocated that position so as to convince his superiors to engage the attack.

If he did, there's also an alternate motive. Since his ultimate design was to pave the way for Holy War, he would have realized (as the Mandate Quorum did, when they were speculating as to the target of the imminent war) that the war could not succeed without a School in support of the ground troops. What better way to entice the Spires to join- urge the Cisharim to assassinate the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires by blaming the skinspies on the Spires; and guaranteeing mortal enmity between the two schools, so when the war starts the Spires have a perfect reason to join up.
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[quote name='Brady' post='1716685' date='Mar 12 2009, 08.38']IIRC, Moenghus didn't want the Cishaurim to attack the Scarlet Spires, but his superiors refused to believe that anyone but the SS could be responsible for the skin-spies. Much in the same way Xerius refused to believe Skeaos was Consult, and simply assumed he was a Pshuke construct.[/quote]

That's correct. We learn in TTT that Moe was unable to convince the Cishaurim that the skin spies were representatives of the Consult, rather than the SS.
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I think expending three Cishaurim in a suicide attack would have been highly uncharacteristic for the legitimate Cishaurim leadership. Even rank-and-file Cishaurim are holy and valuable. On the other hand, we have seen Moënghus going through his Cishaurim followers like candy in order to fulfill missions like sending cryptic messages to Kellhus.

And besides, the Cishaurim had no real reason to assume that Scarlet Spires were behind the spies. The Scarlet Spires didn't have any particular beef with the Cishaurim beyond generic hostile rivalry and the Cishaurim would have known that. The Imperial Saik was the school in service to their traditional enemy. Therefore I think starting the secret war was a result of active scheming by someone, namely Moënghus.

And as for Moënghus being supposedly weak in the Water, I keep having to remind people that that is only an educated guess by Kellhus, not a confirmed fact. For all his intelligence, Kellhus isn't automatically right every time, especially when he is lacking in relevant data. The Grandmaster of Imperial Saik might not be as smart as Kellhus, but he does have the benefit of an extensive spy network and thus we have to consider the fact that he might be right and Kellhus wrong. I think it entirely possible that Moënghus teleported those Cishaurim in.

I'm not at all convinced that the Dûnyain really lack the passion needed to function as a Cishaurim. They could just be really good at bottling it up while priding themselves of their dispassion, an explanation which happens to line up admirably with the evidence.
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1) It's not an "educated guess". It's essentially fact. It's an using the probability trance to understand the shape of things to come and those that have passed. It's fact. Moenghus is weak in the Pshuke.

2) The book also makes clear that the Cishaurim blamed the Scarlet Spires, as they thought only the most powerful school in the Three Seas would date, let alone be capable of, infiltrating them that way.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1717738' date='Mar 13 2009, 00.17']1) It's not an "educated guess". It's essentially fact. It's an using the probability trance to understand the shape of things to come and those that have passed. It's fact. Moenghus is weak in the Pshuke.[/quote]

It is clear from the books that the probability trance can only utilize the information the individual already has. For example, Kellhus can't deduce very much at all about the outer world before he actually goes there and gets himself educated in its myriad ways. In the case of Moënghus, Kellhus knew very little about his father post Ishuäl and was thus "speaking in generalities" when he "analyzed" him. Unfortunately for Kellhus, I think all of his assumptions weren't accurate and he didn't have enough empirical data to notice that. Garbage in, garbage out. Being really incredibly smart doesn't make one immune to errors, especially when the error is basically of excessive pride and the person has been having really easy opponents as of late. I think Kellhus subconsciously [i]wanted[/i] to see himself as better than his father, even if he could never admit it to himself that he could be acting in such illogical and emotional manner.

[quote]2) The book also makes clear that the Cishaurim blamed the Scarlet Spires, as they thought only the most powerful school in the Three Seas would date, let alone be capable of, infiltrating them that way.[/quote]

Where and how is that said exactly? Kellhus again? Even if the Scarlet Spires is the #1 suspect for Cishaurim, there's still the Imperial Saik (their traditional enemy!) and the Mysunsai and the Mandate that are completely non-rumor opponents.

[b]Means:[/b]
The Scarlet Spires could conceivably have made the skin-spies, but that would have to be something they had to research from whole cloth. The only faction with a history of that kind of thing is the Consult.

[b]Motive:[/b]
The Imperial Saik has the best motive, although they seem to be doing pretty well with human spies already. The Consult also has a good motive if you believe that they want to bring about the Second Apocalypse. The Mysunsai could be fishing for information to sell to the highest bidder. Really, every Great Faction has a motive to stay informed.

[b]Opportunity:[/b]
Just about everyone in the world had the opportunity. The Scarlet Spires is in no way special in that.

I don't think there is anywhere near the kind of evidence that would justify starting a secret war against the Scarlet Spires and especially not the sort that would justify a suicide mission of three Cishaurim against the Scarlet Spires Grandmaster. If there was additional evidence, it would have to have been planted by someone who wanted to frame the Scarlet Spires... like Moënghus, if his planted evidence wasn't just attacking the Scarlet Spires unknown to his superiors and waiting for the School to lash back at the Cishaurim.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1718590' date='Mar 13 2009, 19.15']Seriously, Kellhus was right. That's all there is to it.[/quote]

Seriously, that's SO not all there is to it. I think Kellhus is currently in the state of pride that goes before the fall. Questions abound.

- How Cememketri was so scared of Mallahet's power and thought that three Saik sorcerers would not be enough. Cememketri's information also disagrees with Kellhus's claim that Moënghus had little esteem among the Cishaurim.

- How Moënghus was able to have Cishaurim followers that were willing to die for tasks like serving as messenger boys when Kellhus thought Moënghus didn't have much influence.

- How come there was exactly one line of footprints in the dust leading to Moënghus the shortest path possible and no footprints going back. We know Moënghus must have been to his secret area and back several times. An alternate entrance (as opposed to just teleporting in and out) is possible, but it's like Moënghus never explored the maze-like place but rather knew straight where to go.
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Um, Kellhus never says Moenghus has little power among the Cishaurim.

He says:

1) That he has little power with the Psukhe. Which is true.

2) That his POLITICAL power within the Cishaurim, while great, is not as great as it could be. Without his eyes, he can't read people as well as Kellhus can and can't maintain control over them the same way Kellhus does.

That doesn't mean he's not powerful though. He's got devoted followers and he's considered the second most powerful man in the Cishaurim. But that is, again, politically.

The whole conversation between Kellhus and Moenghus is the two of them exchanging information that both already know is true. They aren't talking, they are testing each other.
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If Moënghus were really that weak, three Imperial Saik would have been able to stomp him with little effort. But Cememketri knew the situation to be the other way around. According to Cememketri, Moënghus's power is feared by the other Cishaurim and the only reason he isn't the Heresiarch is that he isn't a native Kianene. According to Kellhus, Moënghus's weakness is a subject of ridicule among his peers and he doesn't have that much political power. The two viewpoints are not reconcialable.

The question then goes to who has the better case:

Cememketri: Bases his argument on a lot of old-fashioned spying. The big strokes of Cishaurim political life would have been nearly impossible to keep secret from the general populace, which would have contained a whole bunch of Nansur spies reporting interesting events.

Kellhus: Since Moënghus's face and posture is unreadable to him, bases his argument on a lot of probability trancing using information gained mostly from Achamian, who had a lot of knowledge but didn't specialize in Kian and Cishaurim like the Nansur would have, and an unverified idea that the Dûnyain have bred out their passion instead of bottling it up.

Aristotle may have been an incredibly smart guy, but our understanding of the world didn't really start to progress until philosophers that were content only to think about things were replaced with empirical scientists doing actual experiments. I think Cememketri is on a firmer ground here.
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[quote name='Nerdanel' post='1718958' date='Mar 13 2009, 18.00']If Moënghus were really that weak, three Imperial Saik would have been able to stomp him with little effort. But Cememketri knew the situation to be the other way around. According to Cememketri, Moënghus's power is feared by the other Cishaurim and the only reason he isn't the Heresiarch is that he isn't a native Kianene. According to Kellhus, Moënghus's weakness is a subject of ridicule among his peers and he doesn't have that much political power. The two viewpoints are not reconcialable.[/quote]

They are if you could actually grasp the idea that sorcerous and political power are different.

Moenghus himself says he's horribly weak in the Psuhke. The message to Ishual almost killed him.

He's only powerful because of his ability to manipulate others. But even this is stunted by his lack of real sight.

Kellhus' insights are all dead on because they are the same as his. Both of them have grasped the Thousand-Fold Thought. Kellhus can easily trace Moenghus actions based on what little he knows because they are the same actions he would have taken.

I have no idea what the rest of your post is about.
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Batathent.

I think Batathent is where the climax of the Aspect Emperor series will take place. ;) Not really, but I do wonder if we will come back to it (ala Bilbo's three trolls;))

It caught my eye on my read through. In the chapter where we first find out what the inchoroi are (the heading is the "Ballad of the Inchoroi" song that ends with "We are the race of flesh/We are the race of lovers") Akka stops at and sleeps at Batathent. And we get another huge key piece of information here, for the first time, I think, about what the No-God entailed. However the chain of events in this paragraph gave me pause, anyone else see something odd in it?

[quote]In his sleep, he dreamed of that day when every child was stillborn, that day when the Consult, beaten back to the black ramparts of Golgotterath by the Nonmen and the ancient Norsirai, brought emptiness, absolute and terrible, into the world: Mog-Pharau, the No-God. In his sleep, Achamian watched glory after glory flicker out through Seswatha's anguished eyes.[/quote]

once I typed that out, I realized my confusion. when reading it, I thought it read that the 'every child was stillborn' came before the No God was awoken, that the war was already waging because of the stillbirths and that the NoGod was a last ditch effort (that worked) for the consult when they were on the edge of defeat. Typing it out made me realize it's a single sentance, probably referring to the same day of the No-God's awakening, rather than the first referring to "day" as "In the time when". so what was the war about that had the consult near defeat before the No-God came?

Also this paragraph chilled me as it makes me wonder if the Consult cannot bring the No-God into the world without enough souls in proximity. Maybe they need all the souls of a massive army to even make his resurrection (or initial incarnation) possible. Which is not to say that all those souls would be used/lost/sacrificed by the process of incarnating the No-God, but rather to say all those souls are like bringing heat/fire to the alien from The Thing. It opens the door so it can enter the world.
SPOILER: the Judging Eye
Perhaps by going on his great Ordeal Kellhus is in fact facilitating the only possible way that No-God could return.
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[quote name='lockesnow']so what was the war about that had the consult near defeat before the No-God came?[/quote]

From the Glossary entry about the Apocalypse:

"Legend has it that Nonmen Siqu informed the Grandmaster of the Sohonc that the Mangaecca, or Consult as they had come to be called, had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets that would lead to the world's destruction. Seswatha in turn convinced Celmomas to declare war on Golgotterath in 2123."
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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1719244' date='Mar 13 2009, 23.00']From the Glossary entry about the Apocalypse:

"Legend has it that Nonmen Siqu informed the Grandmaster of the Sohonc that the Mangaecca, or Consult as they had come to be called, had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets that would lead to the world's destruction. Seswatha in turn convinced Celmomas to declare war on Golgotterath in 2123."[/quote]

SPOILER: the judging eye


So this would be around the time that Celmomas built Ishual, perhaps the discussions Seswatha and Celmomas were having in Akka's dreams were about Seswatha trying to persuade Celmomas to war.
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[quote name='lockesnow' post='1719209' date='Mar 14 2009, 00.07']it makes me wonder if the Consult cannot bring the No-God into the world without enough souls in proximity. Maybe they need all the souls of a massive army to even make his resurrection (or initial incarnation) possible. Which is not to say that all those souls would be used/lost/sacrificed by the process of incarnating the No-God, but rather to say all those souls are like bringing heat/fire to the alien from The Thing. It opens the door so it can enter the world.
SPOILER: the Judging Eye
Perhaps by going on his great Ordeal Kellhus is in fact facilitating the only possible way that No-God could return.
[/quote]

But bear in mind that if you came to this speculative conclusion, there is not a snowball's chance in hell Kellus hasn't already. We all know he does not shy from breaking eggs to make an omelett, and his purpose might even be something along the lines of actually
SPOILER: the Judging Eye
luring forth the No-God in order to bring about its definitive annihilation or something along those lines. Ending it all in one fell swoop, as it were.

Or not.
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Unfortunately it looks like I have managed to misplace my copy of TTT, so I won't be quoting from it. However, I have a distinct memory that Kellhus speculates to the effect of that the other Cishaurim listen to Moënghus while he's present but behind his back think his lack of Water means the Solitary God doesn't like him much, which diminishes Moënghus's influence.

However, I do have TDTCB on my desk...

[quote name='TDTCB']"But not just any emissary, God-of-Men." Skeaös licked his thin, old-man lips. "[i]A Cishaurim.[/i] The Fanim have sent a Cishaurim."

[...]

"Do you have enough?"

"More than enough," Cememketri replied, his voice indignant.

"Heed your tone, Grandmaster," Skeaös snapped from Xerius's left. "Our Emperor has asked you a question."

Cememketri bowed his head slightly, as if against his will. Twin fires reflected in his large wet eyes. "There are three of us here, God-of-Men, and twelve crossbowmen, all bearing Chorae."

Xerius winced. "Three? Only you and two other remain?"

"It could not be helped, God-of-Men."

[...]

Xerius sensed the Grandmaster stiffen next to him. "Emperor," the sorcerer murmured, "You must leave at once. If this is truly Mallahet, you're in grave danger. We all are!"

Mallahet... He had heard that name before, in one of Skeaös's briefings. The one whose arms were scarred like a Scylvendi.

"So three are not enough," Xerius replied, inexplicably heartened by his Grandmaster's fear.

"Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bans non-Kianene from the position of the Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"

"What the Grandmaster says is true, God-of-Men," Skeaös added in low tones. "You must leave at once. Let me negotiate in your stead..."[/quote]

Cememketri thinks three sorcerers and twelve Chorae archers are more than enough against an unnamed Cishaurim and feels indignation at someone would suggest otherwise, but when he hears the emissary is [i]Mallahet[/i] he suddenly gets scared and thinks the defenses are not enough to keep the Emperor safe. Cememketri wouldn't feel threatened by Mallahet's [i]political[/i] power.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Mallahet = Moënghus.
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All they know of Mallahet is that he's powerful. I doubt the second in command of the Cishaurim goes around advertising that he's weak in sorcery.

Regardless, your still ignoring that Moenghus himself says he sucks at the Psukhe.
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