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Dark Age Revisionism: has it gone too far?


EHK for Darwin

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[quote name='tzanth' post='1665136' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.47']That's exactly the problem. Our culture is partially modeled after and largely exults the ancient roman system. Because of this we are clearly inclined to see the decline of Rome as a collapse into "darkness." But just because we love cities, for example, doesn't mean that more rural organizations cant be effective means of organizing a society. I agree that there are cases in which we need to make value judgments about aspects of human behavior. Generally, however, such judgments obfuscate an objective understanding of past social structures and processes.[/quote]

And of course, that moulding after roman principles is probably more ideological than actual: IE: Europeans so desperately WANTED to be the successors of Rome. While in fact, modern democracy doesen't come from Greece, it comes from medieval communes and parlaments, galvanized by the Reformation.

Europeans aren't alone in having this kind of warped self-understanding of course.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665139' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.49']By the same token, I think trying to act like some societal structures and processes don't work better then others is, as EHK put it, stupid "Everyone gets a Trophy!" crap.[/quote]

But the point is, every such social structure might work better *in a particular context*. But what might thrive in certain circumtances might be an abysmal failure in others: Feudalism worked in it's context, where it is doubtful a roman-style centralized government would have.

And as mentioned, once we get into the High Middle Ages we're getting innovations, institutions and technologies that the romans either didn't know about or knew about but never bothered utilizing.
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Re Golden Age: I rarely see that term applied. Except in art history and in music history. Then it is the used for the art and music of the 17th century, but I would not generalise it, because the 17th century was just as bad to live in as the 14th century if you want to cast judgements.

The Golden Age in its original meaning is more like a philosophical concept which basis is the constant decline of humanity.
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Guest Other-in-law
This is a very minor tangent, but I only recently discovered (rather sheepishly) that Roman [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitoria"]Vomitoria[/url] were NOT rooms intended for deliberate purging of consumed meals....they're just the exit ramps from arenas.

:blush:
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Yeah, golden age is used very rarely and usually very specifically "The Golden Age of the Dutch Republic." I've never seen it used as a generalized term like people sometimes use "The Dark Ages".
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665139' date='Jan 28 2009, 00.49']By the same token, I think trying to act like some societal structures and processes don't work better then others is, as EHK put it, stupid "Everyone gets a Trophy!" crap.[/quote]

Studying the stuff that doesn't "work" is often the most rewarding of all. Yet, clearly the "dark ages" worked.... they lasted several centuries after all.
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[quote name='tzanth' post='1665148' date='Jan 28 2009, 03.55']Studying the stuff that doesn't "work" is often the most rewarding of all. Yet, clearly the "dark ages" worked.... they lasted several centuries after all.[/quote]

So we're getting even MORE pedantic now?
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[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1665146' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.54']Yeah, golden age is used very rarely and usually very specifically "The Golden Age of the Dutch Republic." I've never seen it used as a generalized term like people sometimes use "The Dark Ages".[/quote]

Does it cover the same period? Then its use for the paintings of Rembrandt and Rubens comes probably from the same reference. It's interesting that the 17th century would be the Golden Age for the Netherlands.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665149' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.57']So we're getting even MORE pedantic now?[/quote]

Pedantry is the soul of history :P
[quote name='Red Sun' post='1665150' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.57']Does it cover the same period? Then its use for the paintings of Rembrandt and Rubens comes probably from the same reference. It's interesting that the 17th century would be the Golden Age for the Netherlands.[/quote]

The 17th century is usually known as the Dutch Golden age, while the 16th is the spanish "Golden Century".

Sweden, AFAIK, has no "Golden Age" (although I've seen it sometimes applied to the roman period in scandinavia, but there it's simply a reference to the fact that we've found a lot of gold from that period, and as a pun of sorts)
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[quote name='tzanth' post='1665148' date='Jan 28 2009, 09.55']Studying the stuff that doesn't "work" is often the most rewarding of all. Yet, clearly the "dark ages" worked.... they lasted several centuries after all.[/quote]

Well, admittedly, we can not even study that much about the "Dark Ages" (as the pre-Carolingian era), because we don't know what worked and why it worked. We know much better how people reacted to the crisis of the 14th century, because we have more sources.
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If we're defining "worked" as "lasted a period of time", then it's a useless term. Any form of society works. Rampant post-apocalyptic cannbalism works, as it's certainly going to last some period of time.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665160' date='Jan 28 2009, 10.07']If we're defining "worked" as "lasted a period of time", then it's a useless term. Any form of society works. Rampant post-apocalyptic cannbalism works, as it's certainly going to last some period of time.[/quote]

Would it?

I think we can argue that the society of the Easter Islanders didn't work, as they were well on their way to extinction when the spanish arrived.
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665160' date='Jan 28 2009, 01.07']If we're defining "worked" as "lasted a period of time", then it's a useless term. Any form of society works. Rampant post-apocalyptic cannbalism works, as it's certainly going to last some period of time.[/quote]

Balderdash. Some forms of society work given their environmental and historical contexts and others don't. Try setting up an absolute monarchy in modern america and see how well that works for you.
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Ahh, so we're progressing to an actually useful meaning of "works" then. Assigning value to things and what not.


The society of the Easter Islanders apparenlty didn't, what with it seemingly leading them on the path to extinction and all. (Although it apparently still lasted some period of time)
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[quote name='Shryke' post='1665167' date='Jan 28 2009, 01.15']Ahh, so we're progressing to an actually useful meaning of "works" then.[/quote]

No, its the same definition. If it lasts its still working. If it doesn't its failed.
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[quote name='tzanth' post='1665169' date='Jan 28 2009, 04.17']No, its the same definition. If it lasts its still working. If it doesn't its failed.[/quote]

So, again, as long as it lasts, it works? Even if it lasts several centuries before leading to the extinction of it's people?
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[quote]Does it cover the same period? Then its use for the paintings of Rembrandt and Rubens comes probably from the same reference. It's interesting that the 17th century would be the Golden Age for the Netherlands.[/quote]

Yep. You only have to walk through Amsterdam to see this. Trade capital of Europe in the 17th century.

Of course, it went into decline after 1672, the Year of Disaster, which is why the city center *still* looks as if it's been lifted from the pages of a history book.

Rubens is Flemish, of course, so not a citizen of the Dutch Republic.
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[quote name='Artas' post='1665176' date='Jan 28 2009, 10.22']Yep. You only have to walk through Amsterdam to see this. Trade capital of Europe in the 17th century.

Of course, it went into decline after 1672, the Year of Disaster, which is why the city center *still* looks as if it's been lifted from the pages of a history book.

Rubens is Flemish, of course, so not a citizen of the Dutch Republic.[/quote]

oops @ Rubens. I guess he is more linked to the Silver Century of Spain. ;)

It's really interesting, because for other parts of Europa, the 17th century, consisted merely of war and pest and famine, but the geographic situation of the Dutch Republic was probably helpful for better conditions, and then, their freedom was finaly confirmed in the Westphalian Peace.
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Germany of course, has the 17th century on a special pedestal of crap.

A good portion of it is our fault of course :P

But really, Russia, Poland, Germany, Spain and England had it pretty bad. Sweden, France and the Dutch were doing OK though.
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