Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Venardhi

A script review. - SPOILERS

Recommended Posts

[quote name='baxus' post='1678210' date='Feb 8 2009, 06.43']from what i've read in the script they are not even close to making a LotR-like mistake, though and that's good enough for me...[/quote]

:rofl:

It seems, whether you loved it hated it, LOTR (movies) is becoming the standard by which all other fantasy is judged. Just like the book itself. If you like LOTR it's: "this isn't a patch on LOTR" or "this is almost as great as LOTR". If you hated LOTR it's: "soo much better than LOTR" or "This is so bad it makes LOTR look good".

On topic.

The Benjen/Ned age controversy: This is an example of why reading the script can be a bad idea. Unless there is mention of their ages in the dialogue then there is nothing to worry about. By the time you get to your 40s you really can't tell an age difference between 40 and 45. So even even if the actors hired are the ages this thread suggests there is no reason to be so concerned.

Even IF the characters are obviously played as Benjen being the older brother, the issue of primo genitals is totally irrelevant: He joined the NW, who cares if he's got the biggest genitals?

"There's always a Stark in Winterfell"? If no one says it during the series, it was never a Stark tradition, doesn't matter what the book says. Unless it leads to an internal inconsistency within the story line of the series, fugget about it. The reason it is the way it is: mistake = poor research, is that really likely with GRRM being pretty close to the project; or deliberate = there is method to the madness, which the writers/producers think adds something to the drama of the show/series.

Ned as swordsman: He's got to be pretty good to go toe to toe with the SotM and hold him off long enough for Howland to take him from behind :leer:

7:3 odds, WTF! Rambo regularly kicks arse with much worse odds. The 3 KG should have won if they had the greatest sword in Westeros & 2 other above average swordsmen besides. Unless, that is, the surviving Northmen were melee fighters of noteworthy merit themselves. At least we know Ned can take off a man's head with one swipe.

I'm glad to read that the Jaime/Tyrion scene is drawing the laughs. Lets hope the delivery is spot on.

Major worries for the success of the series: Cheesy lines and cheesy delivery, end of story. The other worries are all purist sniping.

All those bad lines and cringeworthy moments are the job of the editing team to eliminate. If they are shooting a 1 TV hour pilot I'm hoping they get at least 1hr 10min of edited footage out of the first cut.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought the script was really good. The pace seems good, majority of the scenes where very cinematic. Character seemed well adapted and overall faithful to the books. Though I did not care so much for a somewhat exposed Jamie, I would want keep him in the back or in a more mysterious manner. I did not care for the exchange between Jamie and Ned either. Jon also seemed quite sulky throughout. I definitively felt vibes from Rome throughout, especially at the feast at the exchange between the different characters, poisonous remarks, eyes glittering by the dim light, good stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='gippu' post='1679863' date='Feb 9 2009, 07.48']I thought the script was really good. The pace seems good, majority of the scenes where very cinematic. Character seemed well adapted and overall faithful to the books. Though I did not care so much for a somewhat exposed Jamie, I would want keep him in the back or in a more mysterious manner.[/quote]

I think we would all prefer a more "mysterious" Jaime at first, but since this is a TV show, they have to grab audiences and make them care about the characters from the get-go. If the series follows a one-book-per-season timeline, we wouldn't really care about Jaime (except as a villain) until season 3, and the show might not even get that far.

One of the pitfalls of making a TV show out of a book...you can't hold things (especially characters) too much in reserve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Read it, liked it. A couple of things I don't agree with.

1) Ned as a good swordsman randomly. I can, I guess agree with the idea to make him a good fighter. It can capture the imaginations of those who watch the show. Fine. But him, flaunting military prowess doesn't seem Nedish. In fact I may just change this point to New Ned, you know the one interested in boars and spears and kicking Jaime ass, and has a sense of humor.

2) some lines seemed changed for no particular reason and some great lines just not there.

3) Cersei's scene with Pycelle in which I thought all she needed was to twirl a mustache and laugh annoyingly for a sign that read "Villain Here" to pop up.

Though as a whole. I would watch it in an instant and would probably enjoy it if the actors make it work. Give a good actor bad lines and they can make it good. I'm hoping that works here too, even though the lines themselves aren't bad, but they're not exactly up to ASOIAF snuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't read it, but if New Ned is as you describe - "interested in boars and spears and kicking Jaime ass, and has a sense of humor" - then it's so wildly anticanonical as to be deal-breaking. He's a major character, and to radically alter his personality like that is beyond unnecessary, it's detrimental.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Finally found the damn thing. I will read through it and see what I think. I can handle some changes I just hope that this turns out to be really good. I would so order H.B.O. again for this if they do it well. I would also buy the damn BluRays too. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Aoede' post='1680154' date='Feb 10 2009, 07.19']I haven't read it, but if New Ned is as you describe - "interested in boars and spears and kicking Jaime ass, and has a sense of humor" - then it's so wildly anticanonical as to be deal-breaking. He's a major character, and to radically alter his personality like that is beyond unnecessary, it's detrimental.[/quote]

I can kind of understand it from a televisual point of view. In Series 1 Ned is the only major character to be killed off. I can understand the desire for him to have borader audience appeal than a straight laced, humourless sort of Ned. I imagine they think it gives his death a much better TV payoff than the book version of Ned would.

The question is, is it really necessary for the success of the series? Certainly not the death pay off, because by then people will either be into the series or not. But in terms of people engaging with the characters early on to get the series off to a good start, it all depends on how much they are relying on Ned to be an audience pulling character.

Or perhaps its a case of the chalk and cheese natures of Ned and Robert work fine in a book, where you can go into lots of background about why they are such friends despite their seemingly incompatible personalities. But for TV maybe you need the two to be more alike, share some common interests (other than screwing around, which would really be the only truly unforgivable mutilation of Ned's character), in order for their closeness to be believable. Simply because you don't have the screen time to explain these things.

Actually, Bolton Bastard, I am more concerned about your last post than the prior one. If the lines really are random and not in-keeping with his TV character then that is problematic. Whereas if the lines are in-keeping with his TV persona then all is well. Consistency of characterisation is essential, fidelity to the characters in the books, not so much.

[quote name='me399' post='1680426' date='Feb 10 2009, 09.43']Finally found the damn thing. I will read through it and see what I think.[/quote]

I thought I wanted to read the script for about 1/2 a second, but I've probably seen more description and commentary about the script than I really wanted - entirely my fault of course. I want to leave a few things unknown about the pilot until I see it on screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd have to differ AT. If it's just a few lines (basically the boar line, and the tourney line with Jaime that really makes you stop) then I hope it will be edited or leveled out in later episodes without disrupting the character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No offense folks but I think you might be worrying too much! The age is just for casting, it won't be stated most likely (for Benjen at least). The comments about Ned's fighting prowess is given more as direction, I don't think it's going to explicitly state that in the pilot.

I didn't mind the confrontation between Ned and Jaime. It brought the heat on with those two earlier and that's not bad. I do think that Ned's tourney line could be better, but it's not as horrible as I understood it to be from the comments.

The only thing that I have to say that I REALLY disliked was Ned's line about not being "your dog to command" or however it's stated. That was totally out of place not just with his character but with the flow of the scene. He should be more sad and reluctant, not angry. It's almost makes Ned into a real a-hole. I don't like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For people who've seen Deadwood, it strikes me that Ned is a very similar character to Seth Bullock(except without all of the unbridled rage) and should be played as such in the series. He should have all the humor of a rock. They are both very honorable men with a stain of dishonor upon them. I thought Seth was a great character who worked well in Deadwood, so I don't understand why Ned needs to be altered to be boastful and joking at times. And it doesn't matter whether Ned is a great swordsman or not, he would never be boastful of his martial skill.

Regarding Jon telling Ned what he already knows about his children. In the book, Jon first tells Ned that there are 3 male pups and 2 females(which Ned would obviously not already know). Ned responds with "What of it?" And Jon is then forced to spell it out for his father(who either doesn't make the connection or is purposefully avoiding the omen for whatever reason) and remind him of the quantity of his children and their genders. Ned's "what of it" makes Jon's dialogue here logical. Take it out and it makes little sense. Good screen writers should catch this. And I think they will. I see on-the-set rewrites in Dan & Dave's futures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
- i'll be honest - i don't read screenplays often - but I read scripts about 5 times a week. so i like to think i have some idea about what works and what doesn't. so here's my input.

Overall - I'm happy with it. As I learned from posting my videos - people aren't ever gonna be completely happy with anything. People lost their minds about Tom being left out of LOTR's and Arwin (sp) being a larger part - both moves that I felt aided the films. So I'd like to say - the following is my opinion - and may be total shit.

i actually totally agree with the aforementioned quote about Ned and his Deadwood counterpart, Seth. I recently started watching Deadwood and was blown away by the similarities - the introductions to both of those characters is an execution. A merciful execution - which is incredibly telling of the characters.

The 'Ned bad-ass' scenario - It wasn't til I was on this blog that I realized - WOW - Ned doens't fight! But, imo, he's still a major badass. And that badassiness - comes thru in his silence. On stage (at least) silence is your strongest friend. A true bad ass doesn't have to boast about his kickass nature. The fact he lops a dudes head off in the beginning is bad ass enough for me. And then his, quiet remorse? in the gods wood - makes him a beautiful character. Dude has the biggest damn sword in westeros - he's pretty damn badass.

Wasn't a huge fan of the Jaime and Tyrion scene - I felt it cheapened them a bit. It makes perfect sense to me and I'm sure that the conversation is incredibly likely within the world of the books. I understand why the introduction was there. I just didn't like it. I can't put my finger on it. tyrion does whore round and it's totally in character - but in the books, my first memory of him is walking with the royals and that great scene with jon. first impressions mean a lot (ned chopping off heads for example) and now our first impression of one of my favorite characters ever written is kinda silly - and not heart felt - tyrion has a lot to lose by talking with jon - blah blah blah - i'm just being sentimental

On a quick side note - I kinda foresaw the prologue of the whole thing in my head - like the beginning of the LORT's - with a history of the battles over the kingdom and Robert winning on the Trident, and Jaime killing the king and Ned leading the rebellion etc - if this thing gets picked up - it's gonna be a bitch retelling some of this stuff - i'm sure they're gonna have to do flashbacks- it'll be too confusing explaining it thru dialogue.

OK - back to my notes - the age of Benjen - yeah, get over it - if it's not mentioned it doesn't matter. They probably just want someone that looks that age - people age faster than others. I'm sure the wall ages the hell out of a person. Yeah, it may have been an oversite - but it'll be fine.

Wasn't a fan of the Jaime/Ned scene - I like the possibilities of it - it was just a touch stilted for my taste. I would have loved a quick flashback of Ned seeing Jaime on the throne and the king drowning in a pool of his blood on the floor. just brief glimpse, a quick pop, even if it would be confusing to the viewer. - that glimpse would set up an interesting past for the two characters without a word needing to be said. and create a mystery for the viewers. just my take. probably wrong.

benjen and jon - you gotta have that bastard line instead of the wick line - or jon's exit isn't motivated and he comes off as a angsty tween for no reason. and it's a good line too - cuz eventually jon was probably about to sire some kid off of ygritte if he didn't watch it. OH and 'this one's mine' - gross - the original is so much better - 'i don't think so greyjoy, this one belongs to me' that one line brings home so much - about jon, theon and what is to come on some many levels.

umm...it would help the viewer if they could somehow see the map to know dany is really damn far away across a sea - maybe - don't know how it would happen - but it couldn't hurt....

hmm...I felt Jaime and Cersei were a little too obviously 'the bad guys' i felt jaime had a bit too much dialogue actually - and, don't get me wrong - i love jaime. OH - the fact that they are twins should somehow be mentioned. it may be obvious to a viewer - but still...couldn't hurt. again, a silent jaime with people whispering about his prowess is so much more strong than him being kinda bitchy at a dinner table. and then - you finally see him doing something - and - he's fucking his twin sister and flinging kids outta windows. i'm sure he has dialogue before that in the books - but the first line of his i remember is - the things i do for love.

someone mentioned the direwolf stilted dialogue earlier - then spelled it out how it could work without it sounding like exposition - i totally agree with them.

OK, i'm sure there's other stuff. BUT let me say - for the half a dozen things i pointed out - there are half a hundred things that work and another hundred that are great. I'm very excited to see what happens with it. it's obvious they care about the characters and the story and the world in which it all takes place. these are just my ramblings. i got very excited while reading it and hope that it comes to fruition. they did a great job trimming out the fat (the beautiful yummy tasty fat) but fat none the less.

we, as faithful readers, will never be 100% happy with what they do. but GRRM is working alongside them - and D&D want to be as loyal as possible. I have faith that whatever future the series has is in good hands and can't wait to see the results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='DARKPIE' post='1678274' date='Feb 7 2009, 14.26']Other than that some things seem inconsistent, and I'm still not sold on aging up Robb and Jon especially. (It REALLY makes the whole Joff/Robb scene awkward.)[/quote]
How does it work that Jon is 17, but Dany is only 15? That seems like a big gaff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Jojen's Ghost' post='1686137' date='Feb 14 2009, 06.00']How does it work that Jon is 17, but Dany is only 15? That seems like a big gaff.[/quote]

Keep in mind that:
i) These ages probably won't be mentioned during the show, so the ages as listed in the script will not be obvious to the viewer; and
ii) Dave and Dan have assured us that:

[quote]The age of the actors is a significant issue; trust us that this is something we've discussed with George since our earliest conversations (well over two years ago). None of the characters will be radically aged.[/quote]

So, I wouldn't worry about characters' ages too much. I think we are in safe hands :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
regarding Jon's speech about the direwolves..
I've felt that Jon was not speaking to Ned alone at that scene but to the whole party.
Remember, Theon, Harwin, Hullen and the others were all for killing the pups.
Jon had to make the others see his point, hence the formality in his tone ("Lord Stark") and explaining to Ned what he already knows ("the direwolf is the sigil of your house").

Agree with Rathandal re Jaime in the throne flashback, I've just finished watching Carnivale and that show had plenty of short, quick bursts of flashback re "Scudder/Belyakov/Usher" that made no sense at first but made you curious. I'd' be nice if they could do that in asoiaf too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am I the only one deeply worried about pacing? Do we even give a shit about Bran when he falls? Have we had enough time with him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not like in the book we had many time with him either and still a lot of folks say that this was their hook-up moment.

* (for the record, I didn't give a shit about Bran when he fell, but that turned out to be my normal attitude about him...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='The Kreb' post='1687792' date='Feb 15 2009, 20.30']Am I the only one deeply worried about pacing? Do we even give a shit about Bran when he falls? Have we had enough time with him?[/quote]

Well if you don't pity an 8 year old boy being tossed to death I'd say you're pretty cold. Besides, the pilot emphasized a lot on Bran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not really gippu. Bran has perhaps five to seven minutes of pure screen-time at the most. In AGOT we had two huge healthy chapters.

If I post an article about some dead kid, that takes five to seven minutes to read, will you care by the end of that article? Personally, I won't. It's an unfortunate fact of life that kids die all the time. It takes a bit of time to endear me to one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='The Kreb' post='1688404' date='Feb 16 2009, 13.21']Not really gippu. Bran has perhaps five to seven minutes of pure screen-time at the most. In AGOT we had two huge healthy chapters.

If I post an article about some dead kid, that takes five to seven minutes to read, will you care by the end of that article? Personally, I won't. It's an unfortunate fact of life that kids die all the time. It takes a bit of time to endear me to one.[/quote]

Five to seven minutes is quite a bit actually. The only characters who get more than that are Ned and Dany. Maybe Jon. Reading a book and watching a TV show are two different things. You just can't devote the amount of time and character development that the book is able to give to each character. Or else you will have an entire episode where nothing happens. I feel like he is getting the right amount of screen time and character development.

Plus if they can cast a cute kid with a lot of charisma, that could win over a large portion of the audience right out of the gate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×