A script review. - SPOILERS

[Brude]

Huh whats this bit about Cersei looking around at the rough hewn Great Hall (of Winterfell) that would fit in the Kitchen of her Palace?

Seriously WTF...

I'm pretty sure there is a line very much like that in one of the books, though I think it might have been when Sansa (or someone) got their first view of the Great Hall in The Red Keep and realized just how tiny the Great Hall of Winterfell was in comparison.

[Padraig]

And I don't think the castle itself is sprawling. It was instead a sprawling multi castle complex, with previous holds abandoned instead of been rebuilt.

[Ran]

Yes, Winterfell is partially ruined and abandoned as the Starks gradually over time expanded here and there, then abandoned buildings for newer digs but didn't bother tearing them down. One gets the sense that they care about their history too much to just casually knock old stuff down and use the stones in new projects.

[Son of a Craster]

Ok, I've read it. I've been on these boards for nine years and have refrained from commenting on any of the posts for the past five years, but after reading this thread I just had to go out and read the script.

First off, it's not that bad. A lot of what I read here made me flinch, but if I am honest the script did not disappoint me as much as this thread had me to believe. I would say 90% is actually good to really good. Most of the additions are actually quite fun and true to character.

Here's my 2 (negative) cents (SPOILERS!):

cent 1: yes, cut the Ned - Jaime scene, please. Replace it with one cold stare between the two men or if you really want to maybe have Jaime make one comment about moving his chair backward (relating to the throne), but don't let Ned respond. Ned's not a badass fighter (nobody ever talks of his prowess with the sword, whereas e.g. lifting the siege at Storm's End is mentioned), he's cold, he's stark. Just have Jaime laugh about something, have Ned fixate one cold stare at him (not angry, not too condemning, just a simple stare) and Jaime respond with a twinkle in his eye and a smile with Ned than turning his head away. The time you save you can spend on a few more lines here and there, if needed you could take that time and have the 'that's the only time a man can be brave' back or show some more interaction between the kids or Benjen and Jon or Ned & Catelyn. In addition you would skip over Jaime telling about stabbing the Mad King with a spear (golden sword was better and the spear made me think of Slynt a bit too much).

cent 2: why is Tyrion still sauntering off the gargoyles? GRRM himself told us this was a small gaffe he made. Why not correct it in the tv-series? Tyrion is limping throughout the rest of the books, so lets take this chance and correct that.

ps. dip your wick is not brilliant, sire a few bastards was a lot better, but hey it's only one line in the show, so let's get over ourselves. It's never going to be perfect, it could still be great.

pps. I've read a lot about the limits of film/tv, but remember that a lot of the book is used to describe the landscape, the look and feel of people. All of this is captured in a frame, so tv actually needs a lot less to portray the same message. That said, this means that the speed of this pilot might actually be quite quick. A few cold stares here and there could be useful to tone the speed of the scenes down a bit

[Ran]

I don't recall GRRM calling that a gaffe at all. It's merely a detail that he hasn't had much time to discuss since AGoT, when Tyrion's been rather too busy to revisit his tumbling. I can say with some degree of certainty that ADwD will revisit this topic.

[Son of a Craster]

I don't recall GRRM calling that a gaffe at all. It's merely a detail that he hasn't had much time to discuss since AGoT, when Tyrion's been rather too busy to revisit his tumbling. I can say with some degree of certainty that ADwD will revisit this topic.

Could be my mistake, in which case consider it unsaid. I just had the idea of remembering a comment of GRRM along these lines in an interview (when asked why Tyrion seems to be less agile and more 'stunted' later on in the story)

[Ran]

Ah, here is the source. This was in 2002 when AFfC was one big book, so with the split I'm assuming that his suggestion he'd revisit the topic will be in ADwD. :)

[Ser Greguh]

Okay, I've read it. I suppose discussing it here is kosher, since others seem to be.

First impressions: it feels like an extremely early draft. More of a pitch than a shooting script, truth be told, with excessive amounts of flavor text that might serve a purpose in trying to sell a reader on how awesome and complex the series will become but won't mean a damn thing when it comes to shooting it. Thankfully, this is where the small gaffes like Benjen's mismatched age come into play; it's never mentioned, in anything the viewer will see, so it's not that big of a deal.

I can see where the praise for it comes and also the criticisms. Adapting a prose piece is tricky work, and all told it's been done pretty well here. To a newcomer, part of the job of the script is to give idea of how it will translate to the screen and provide the setup for what to come. It does this very well, in part because of the strength of the source material, in part because the script does a very good job of condensing it down with efficiency. You get a good enough feel for the relationships between the characters, the political situation, and a hint at the upcoming struggles without being drowned in exposition.

On exposition, oddly, I felt as if there wasn't quite enough of it. We don't even get any evidence, for instance, that Benjen is Ned Stark's brother. We barely learn that Jaime and Cersei are twins. I don't think we ever really learn that Jaime is in the kingsguard, or what the kingsguard is. It's great from a fan's perspective, but new viewers might be a little lost. There's a brief scene between Jon and Bran as the king's party arrives that I think could be expanded ever-so slightly. Bran sees Jaime and asks, "Is that the king?" and Jon says "That's Jaime Lannister. The Kingslayer." I would rewrite that scene as something like: Bran: "Is that the king?" / Jon: "You know better than that, Bran. The white cloak..." / Bran: "...of the Kingsguard! That's Jaime Lannister!" / Jon: "The Kingslayer himself. Twin brother to the queen." Of course there's always the factor of time to consider, but a little exposition goes a long way, and in a spot like that it's not so dreadfully out of place.

On the new scenes: the scene of Jon Arryn's body is fine enough; it's good to introduce this mystery early. The scene in the brothel is great; it's fitting that we first meet Tyrion as we do. I actually liked most of the scene at the head table at the feast; the smalltalk between Cersei and Catelyn, the foodfight between Arya and Bran (Jaime's throwaway line, "The girl has talent", could be revisited to great effect; Jaime comes upon the body of a certain stableboy, for instance).

If you notice the new scenes, they all fall under the category of introducing us to the Lannisters. We meet Cersei over Jon Arryn's body, so that when Catelyn receives the letter from Lysa we'll know who the hell Lysa is talking about. We meet Tyrion in the brothel, and barely take note of Jaime, and we meet Jaime in the oft-mentioned confrontation between Jaime and Ned.

The need for a scene where the viewers get to know Jaime - before "The things I do for love" - is essential. Strip the confrontation scene away and Jaime essentially becomes an after-the-credits bit player in the pilot, which would not serve. A confrontation with Ned is a good way to introduce us to Jaime, in theory at least. It sets up the rivalry and history between the two men, which will culminate in Season 1 on the streets of King's Landing, and gives us a glimpse into the arrogant complexities of Jaime's character. The key to writing within a constrained timeframe is efficiency, and the scene has the potential to set up multiple threads. But here, more than in the other scenes, it feels out of place. But having Jaime go out of his way to get in Ned's path, taunt him a bit and offer a thinly veiled challenge, just doesn't fit. It breaks the rhythm of the scene, and the dialogue isn't the best in that spot.

Nevertheless, as a whole the script is quite good, and even if filmed directly should make for a very good pilot episode. As I'm sure this is just an early draft, and that the shooting script may turn out to be quite different, I'm very optimistic.

[Son of a Craster]

well said!

[moirne]

Also, did anyone else think the Jaime/Cersei sex scene was a bit off? I realize I'm nitpicking, but the hair pulling thing bothered me.

Yes, I did not like that at all! It should be left as it is the book with Cersei slapping him first. She's not the submissive type and the hair pulling thing is too violent. I really hope this gets fixed!

I also want to comment on the Jaime / Ned confrontation... it really has to be in there because of the back story with Ned's father and brother. I don't like the spear in the back thing either, it makes Jaime look like a coward. And please change that awful line of why Ned doesn't fight in tourneys!

Tyrion looked like a drunk whoring fool the whole episode. I do not like the brothel scene at all. He's such an important character to the series (unless they want to go for the surprise factor by having viewers underestimate him). Too much comic relief for my taste though.

Ser Greguh, you have an excellent review!

[Scion of Valyria]

Found and read a copy of this.

It turned out better than I had thought it would. My thoughts:

1) To the complaints about the "sunshine and clouds" line in regards to Lyanna...it shouldn't be flowers. Thats what Robert says in the book. It's Ned who makes mention of flowers, saying he brings them to her grave every so often because she was so fond of them. Someone might have made this clarification already, but I didn't see it while I read through the thread.

2) Characterization could be...better. Ned shouldn't be boastful and proud and a military man or one of the greatest swordsmen in the realm. I'm sure he's good, gentry usually get access to that kind of arms training and he's smart enough to lead an army sufficiently. But that entire scene with Jaime (pure and utter nonsense, if you ask me) puts him on a path to being some King Arthur figure. Some of the lines omitted also hurt the portrayal of other characters. Jon Snow and his resentment of being a bastard, Catelyn as being some sweet endearing loving mother (I also considered her much more hands-off, so the scene with her and Bran seemed a bit strange)...the rest seems pretty good. Good setup for Tyrion and Jaime.

3) The Ned-Jaime scene. That needs to go. Its forced and out of character for both Ned and Jaime. Sure, it sets up the conflict between the Houses Stark and Lannister...but that was done in the book with a simple grimace. Show Ned's reaction to the Lannisters coming to Winterfell, show him complaining to Robert about fostering Arryn's son at Casterly Rock. Plenty of things to set up Stark's distaste for Lannisters.

4) There is a lot of Westerosi history in the books that would be impossible to discuss in one season. But show some flashbacks to Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion. They might still do this, it is only the pilot. Although I think they should show the last time Ned and Robert had seen eachother, in Greyjoy's hall, to explain the change in Robert's appearance and why Theon is in the North.

Other than that, I liked it a lot. I think it could work pretty well, and they've definitely streamlined it enough for cable, and avoiding getting bogged down in all the background of this part of the series.

[Ser Greguh]

Tyrion looked like a drunk whoring fool the whole episode. I do not like the brothel scene at all. He's such an important character to the series (unless they want to go for the surprise factor by having viewers underestimate him). Too much comic relief for my taste though.

I disagree on this. They're not being unfair to Tyrion - he does, after all, drink and frequent whores quite frequently - and the depths of his character are still hinted at in his scene with Jon Snow. There's enough going on in the pilot that we don't need anything more than that hint.

[Emo Targaryen]

Ned shouldn't be [...] a military man or one of the greatest swordsmen in the realm.

But he is. Fighting Arthur Dayne, lifting the siege on Storm's End... he may not be showing it during the time of the narration, but I think he can be quite badass. In the books, a lot of this is revealed through the thoughts of the POV characters, which can't be transferred to the screen that easy, so it has to be packed into the dialogue. He might never have uttered these lines in the book, but they perfectly fit the Ned character from the book.

Remember, Martin is involved in the filming and he has written television scripts himself, so he should have some idea about what needs to be changed to make it work on screen. Ned might have some cheesy lines in the script, but without them, and without the various ways the book offers to convey his character (like his own thoughts in his POV chapters - or do you want him to speak all his inner monologue to the camera?) he would be faceless.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

This script is (as guessed earlier) is nothing more than an EARLY DRAFT. This means its insignificant in terms of judging the quality of the pilot, due to the quantity of changes which ALWAYS take place.

At best you can use it as a rough sketch for how they plan to lay out the episode. But honestly i expect 95% of things to be changed in some way.

[Silverstar]

I think the fact that GRRM himself has approved the script means that the characterisation shown is pretty accurate. He's not going to approve it if it isn't. Therefore, Ned being shown as a bit more of a badass than in the books, Catelyn being shown to be a loving mother to her kids, Tyrion being shown in a brothel and so on is simply a more rounded view of the same characters that GRRM didn't originally put into the books, rather than a departure from the way they should be.

[fitheach]

So, I just read a review of Wolverine- which David Benioff wrote the script:

"And while David Benioff's scripts have always had a nice masculine morality to them ("Troy," "25th Hour"), this film feels like many meddling hands took his script, which could have been a simple comic-book morality tale, and tacked new characters on until the original idea got weighed down and bent to the breaking point. "

I just hope this doesn't happen to AGoT... I think Benioff is a great screenwriter, let's hope HBO lets him be.

[Aoede]

I think the fact that GRRM himself has approved the script means that the characterisation shown is pretty accurate. He's not going to approve it if it isn't. Therefore, Ned being shown as a bit more of a badass than in the books, Catelyn being shown to be a loving mother to her kids, Tyrion being shown in a brothel and so on is simply a more rounded view of the same characters that GRRM didn't originally put into the books, rather than a departure from the way they should be.

Funny, what you just described sounds like a more exaggerated version of the characters, rather than a more rounded version.

So, I just read a review of Wolverine- which David Benioff wrote the script:

"And while David Benioff's scripts have always had a nice masculine morality to them ("Troy," "25th Hour"), this film feels like many meddling hands took his script, which could have been a simple comic-book morality tale, and tacked new characters on until the original idea got weighed down and bent to the breaking point. "

I just hope this doesn't happen to AGoT... I think Benioff is a great screenwriter, let's hope HBO lets him be.

We want a "simple comic-book morality tale"?

[Halfhand]

I don't think HBO is going to be hiring any writers to touch up any of these scripts. For one, Benioff and Weiss are executive producers on the project so they have a lot more say than just a hired writer would (like Benioff was on Wolverine). Also, from all the accounts we have heard, HBO is quite pleased with the pilot script.

I admit I was concerned at first after hearing all the negativity surrounding Wolverine. Especially since a lot of it was directed at the script and, more specifically, at the fact that it ignored a lot of the source material. After doing some more research though it looks like they hired some hack writer, Skip Woods (writer of such bastions of cinema like Hitman and Swordfish), to come in and change a lot of what Benioff had originally wrote. One article I read sort of implied that Benioff walked away from the project. I wonder if this was due to some pressure by Fox to make changes to the script that Benioff just didn't want to do?

[Silverstar]

Funny, what you just described sounds like a more exaggerated version of the characters, rather than a more rounded version.

Yeah, maybe.

What I mean is, if GRRM approves the script, then quite clearly, he doesn't view the way the characters are portrayed within it as incorrect or over the top. So, showing Tyrion in a brothel isn't being unfair to him, as has been suggested, as GRRM is obviously happy with him being portrayed that way and doesn't feel that it shows him in an incorrect light. Same with Ned being shown as a bit more of a badass, or Catelyn being shown to be a loving mother.

I'm sure, if GRRM is sitting there going "Oh my god, Ned is nothing like that. And Catelyn is supposed to be a harpy! People aren't supposed to see her as loving and caring!", then the script will be changed to reflect that. He's not going to let the characters he's worked so hard on get butchered.

[Aoede]

What I mean is, if GRRM approves the script, then quite clearly, he doesn't view the way the characters are portrayed within it as incorrect or over the top. So, showing Tyrion in a brothel isn't being unfair to him, as has been suggested, as GRRM is obviously happy with him being portrayed that way and doesn't feel that it shows him in an incorrect light. Same with Ned being shown as a bit more of a badass, or Catelyn being shown to be a loving mother.

I'm sure, if GRRM is sitting there going "Oh my god, Ned is nothing like that. And Catelyn is supposed to be a harpy! People aren't supposed to see her as loving and caring!", then the script will be changed to reflect that. He's not going to let the characters he's worked so hard on get butchered.

Or at least, it's the best he thinks he can get from them.

In any case, it seems to me that "loving her family" is exactly how she's portrayed in the books, I'm not sure where "harpy" comes from.