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Bakker and Women 3 (merged topic)


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[quote name='Jacen' post='1692735' date='Feb 19 2009, 13.57']I really haven't followed this monumental three-part thread very closely, but it seems like many of you are convinced the Bakker books are misogynistic. Does that also mean you're done with Bakker, and you aren't going to keep reading his series?[/quote]

There are several who said they won't bother reading further, Jace. I'm burnt out from these threads, from work, from a toddler daughter with an ear infection. It's a shame really [for me, not anyone else] considering how much the topic has evolved.
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It's fairly remarkable to me how many people don't actually view these books as misogynistic. That's the insanity and disconnect to me, and the part that's most scary. If a world where women are literally worse than men in the eyes of God, where women aren't allowed to read, where the main enemies are rape demons and all the lead characters are sex objects isn't misogynistic - what would be?
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692780' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.17']It's fairly remarkable to me how many people don't actually view these books as misogynistic. That's the insanity and disconnect to me, and the part that's most scary. If a world where women are literally worse than men in the eyes of God, where women aren't allowed to read, where the main enemies are rape demons and all the lead characters are sex objects isn't misogynistic - what would be?[/quote]

How many people are actually saying these books [i]aren't[/i] misogynistic? Or are you and others taking an acceptance of misogyny in these cultures as structurally and narratively sound as a dismissal of the charge? This is what confounds me, Kal.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692780' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.17']It's fairly remarkable to me how many people don't actually view these books as misogynistic. That's the insanity and disconnect to me, and the part that's most scary. If a world where women are literally worse than men in the eyes of God, where women aren't allowed to read, where the main enemies are rape demons and all the lead characters are sex objects isn't misogynistic - what would be?[/quote]

I think it's a pretty big leap between calling the world misogynistic and calling the books themselves misogynistic. I don't think many people would argue that the world of Eärwa is misogynistic. I certainly haven't read anything in the 4 books that would suggest to me that the author felt this way himself, or was promoting the idea. Do you just feel that any representation of a misogynistic world is irresponsible?
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Am I wrong in thinking that, for some of you here at least, what I've said [i]makes no real difference[/i]?

I represent a mysogynistic world, like the world of the Bible as interpreted by many. A world where, like I once debated with an evangelical Aunt of mine, Men stand closer to God than Women - whatever the hell that means. (She couldn't really tell me, aside from the fact that it meant she had to obey her husband). I hope I've convinced most of you that this is very well motivated thematically. That what you're reading has not been written for misogynistic kicks - quite the contrary, in fact.

There seems to be a version of process/product confusion here. How do representations [i]of misogyny[/i] become [i]misogynistic[/i] representations? I really am baffled here, folks, because logically, at least, these two things are quite distinct.

(I guess it's better than blurring this yet further into a [i]misogynistic representer[/i], which simply isn't true.)

scott/
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And things were going so well...

[quote name='Kalbear']It's fairly remarkable to me how many people don't actually view these books as misogynistic.[/quote]

This is a strange statement. Do we have anyone in these threads who claims that the societies of Eärwa are not misogynistic? The argument always seemed to be between people who thought that these societies worked and made sense in the context of the story and those who thought it was just too much. Are you having separate discussions about this elsewhere with people who are of a different opinion?
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[quote]How many people are actually saying these books aren't misogynistic?[/quote]Archie did, above. He still does. (apparently so do Zadok and Jon AS)And my astonishment would be there if one person didn't see it. Like I've said, rape demons, objective inferiority of women and all women being sex objects is not a subtle text.

[quote]I certainly haven't read anything in the 4 books that would suggest to me that the author felt this way himself, or was promoting the idea. Do you just feel that any representation of a misogynistic world is irresponsible?[/quote]Why do people do that?

The books [i]are[/i] misogynistic. They're writing a tale where women are literally worse than men. How can that not be misogynistic? That was the actual intent of the author! Now, whether or not they promote it (they don't) or laud it (they don't) doesn't matter to whether or not they [i]actually are[/i].

As to responsibility - responsible to whom? I don't think writing a book about a misogynistic universe is irresponsible. I don't think Islamic terrorists are going to use it on a plane as a weapon (they'd use an Erikson book, they're a lot bigger). I don't even understand this argument or point. Some readers are going to get where Bakker was going with it and be happy. Others are going to get where he's going and be sickened by it too much to move on. Others are going to not get where he's going with it and be thrilled with the realism of his world and believe that Esmi had it coming and cheer the rape scenes. Bakker can't control the readers of his work.
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I'm almost thinking that at this point, the entire three sections of discussion should be archived and broken down into books and chapters. Some characters (or posters) have left the picture, while it seems that we are getting a wave of new posters who have not read the previous discussion. I'm just not sure yet how to label this new wave of discussion. Perhaps this is more of a needless recap chapter to help heighten our suspense until the exciting discussion we just touched upon recently is resumed.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692851' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.49']As to responsibility - responsible to whom? I don't think writing a book about a misogynistic universe is irresponsible. I don't think Islamic terrorists are going to use it on a plane as a weapon (they'd use an Erikson book, they're a lot bigger). I don't even understand this argument or point. Some readers are going to get where Bakker was going with it and be happy. Others are going to get where he's going and be sickened by it too much to move on. Others are going to not get where he's going with it and be thrilled with the realism of his world and believe that Esmi had it coming and cheer the rape scenes. [b]Bakker can't control the readers of his work[/b].[/quote]

This implication, to my mind, is akin to saying gun manufacturers are killers. Or am I reading what you're implying incorrectly?
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[quote]There seems to be a version of process/product confusion here. How do representations of misogyny become misogynistic representations? I really am baffled here, folks, because logically, at least, these two things are quite distinct.[/quote]Because intent and action aren't the same? I think it's subtext vs. text again. Your female characters are sex objects; that's not a representation of misogyny, that's a misogynistic representation. That's the clearest example in my mind.

Make no mistake - I don't think Bakker is misogynistic or that he's actively promoting it (though other readers have disagreed here ,both positively and negatively). But I certainly think that the book is or can be reasonably interpreted as such. I can also see it's a grey area; when does writing about rape demons cease being a representation of misogyny and start becoming a misogynistic representation? When does objective inferiority of women become the same? I think that's more subjective and individualistic. However, I think simply including elements like this automatically opens that can of worms up.
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[quote name='Kalbear']Archie did, above. He still does. (apparently so do Zadok and Jon AS)[/quote]

See Bakker's post above. I think I have finally understood where the fundamental disagreement in this debate lies. In my mind the picture of something is not the same as the thing itself.
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[quote]This implication, to my mind, is akin to saying gun manufacturers are killers. Or am I reading what you're implying incorrectly?[/quote]At this point, Jeordhi, I don't think you can read anything I say correctly. I have no idea why, but it's probably a fault of mine. I've always stated that I wanted to know what the intent of the book was and then (when we found out) how it succeeded or failed, and where it succeeded or failed. I guess if you want a lame analogy like the above, it would be this: I think Bakker went out to make a gun to showcase how bad guns were - like a gatling gun pistol marketed at home defense that shot 4000 rounds per minute, something ludicrous like that. And I think some people saw that gun and said 'wow, I never looked at a gun like that; that's insane'. I think others looked at the destructive power of that gun and were pretty sickened since they had been hurt by gun violence or had a lot of personal relationships bound up with guns. And then there were others that looked at that gun and said "GOD DAMN THAT'S A FUCKING COOL WEAPON".

Boy, what a shitty analogy.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692851' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.49']The books [i]are[/i] misogynistic. They're writing a tale where women are literally worse than men. How can that not be misogynistic? That was the actual intent of the author! Now, whether or not they promote it (they don't) or laud it (they don't) doesn't matter to whether or not they [i]actually are[/i].

As to responsibility - responsible to whom? I don't think writing a book about a misogynistic universe is irresponsible. I don't think Islamic terrorists are going to use it on a plane as a weapon (they'd use an Erikson book, they're a lot bigger). I don't even understand this argument or point. Some readers are going to get where Bakker was going with it and be happy. Others are going to get where he's going and be sickened by it too much to move on. Others are going to not get where he's going with it and be thrilled with the realism of his world and believe that Esmi had it coming and cheer the rape scenes. Bakker can't control the readers of his work.[/quote]

Well the difference between promoting and not promoting it is a pretty significant one to me. In the first case you're reading hateful propoganda(think Goodkind) and in the second case you're reading a story about an upleasant situation.

Irresponsible was probably the wrong word to use. I was just trying to figure out if your issue was with any misogynistic portrayal or specifically with what Bakker had written(which you've since answered).
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692879' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.04']And then there were others that looked at that gun and said "GOD DAMN THAT'S A FUCKING COOL WEAPON".

Boy, what a shitty analogy.[/quote]

I agree, mostly because the latter example aren't generally those willing to navigate the labyrinthic depths of PoN to get to the "juicy stuff" (sarcasm). They are much more likely to pick up Goodkind or Norman or Ringo for that - easy gratification with easy prose.

At least, no one on Bakker threads that I've ever seen goes on and on about how Esmi's coupling with Aurax and/or the other violent sexual acts was GOD DAMN THAT'S SOME HOT SHIT RIGHT THERE :smileysex:

In other words, it's back to the Nabokov/Lolita argument, the forest for the trees. Nabokov can't control his readers, either ... so is it "wrong" for him to write from the perspective of a paedophile?
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[quote]Indeed. Particularly since nobody in these discussions has said anything like "How wonderful, a book that portrays how women should be treated!".[/quote]Check out the 3 seas forums some time. And there have been plenty of folks on this thread and other Bakker threads in the past that have been really thrilled with his portraying a world realistically, which if not the same thing is fairly close.

[quote]At least, no one on Bakker threads that I've ever seen goes on and on about how Esmi's coupling with Aurax and/or the other violent sexual acts was GOD DAMN THAT'S SOME HOT SHIT RIGHT THERE[/quote]Weren't you the one that said that your favorite part of the book was Cnaiur raping Conphas?

[quote]In other words, it's back to the Nabokov/Lolita argument, the forest for the trees. Nabokov can't control his readers, either ... so is it "wrong" for him to write from the perspective of a paedophile?[/quote]Wrong? I don't know that many people have ever added value judgment to this one way or another. At the same time, it's fairly naive to think that (for example) someone who has been the victim of pedophilia would have the same view of Lolita as someone who hasn't, and I would consider it pretty disrespectful to tell that person 'you just aren't getting my work'.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692879' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.04']At this point, Jeordhi, I don't think you can read anything I say correctly. I have no idea why, but it's probably a fault of mine. I've always stated that I wanted to know what the intent of the book was and then (when we found out) how it succeeded or failed, and where it succeeded or failed. I guess if you want a lame analogy like the above, it would be this: I think Bakker went out to make a gun to showcase how bad guns were - like a gatling gun pistol marketed at home defense that shot 4000 rounds per minute, something ludicrous like that. And I think some people saw that gun and said 'wow, I never looked at a gun like that; that's insane'. I think others looked at the destructive power of that gun and were pretty sickened since they had been hurt by gun violence or had a lot of personal relationships bound up with guns. And then there were others that looked at that gun and said "GOD DAMN THAT'S A FUCKING COOL WEAPON".

Boy, what a shitty analogy.[/quote]

Ok, glad I asked.

I'm sorry you feel that way, about the fault thing. I've actually been querying a few people over the last day or so because I've come to believe the fault is mine. I wish there were no blame for either of us, but I'm willing to try harder. Oddly enough, I care much less about whether or not people think me a misogynist than I do that I can't seem to make myself understood without painting myself so. It's perplexing. And frustrating.

I know your original intent, and it's not a shitty analogy. Or if it is, it started with mine. Maybe analogies just can't touch these kinds of loaded topics.

I don't know.
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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1692780' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.17']It's fairly remarkable to me how many people don't actually view these books as misogynistic. That's the insanity and disconnect to me, and the part that's most scary. If a world where women are literally worse than men in the eyes of God, where women aren't allowed to read, where the main enemies are rape demons and all the lead characters are sex objects isn't misogynistic - what would be?[/quote]


i think that a novel can take place in a misogynistic world without being misogynistic itself. that being said, i think a novel in which the women are LITERALLY inferior to men - categorically inferior- is by definition misogynistic.

my first post by the way - wrong about every single thing. i don't think i've ever seen so much wrongness concentrated in one paragraph. i'd read mr bakker's posts but it just didn't seem possible that it's really about a world where the women are objectively, inherently inferior. i assumed - i had to assume - that the post where he responded to you meant other than what it said on its face. i assumed he'd misread you, or i was misreading what i was reading. what novel was i reading? now with this revelation i feel like i never read PON. i never read a novel about a world in which the women were inherently inferior - that's a different novel. i am bewildered, befuddled and confusticated.
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[quote name='Zadok' post='1692835' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.40']I think it's a pretty big leap between calling the world misogynistic and calling the books themselves misogynistic. I don't think many people would argue that the world of Eärwa is misogynistic. I certainly haven't read anything in the 4 books that would suggest to me that the author felt this way himself, or was promoting the idea. Do you just feel that any representation of a misogynistic world is irresponsible?[/quote]

imagine a set of novels in which black people are inherently inferior. are those novels "racist"?

i don't see how to escape the misogyny label when women in the novel are inherently, objectively inferior.

i am still having trouble accepting that. and i don't see where bakker fully acknowledges this fact - the closest i've found (forgive my shoddy investigative work if this is the case) is his response to kalbear, and that's not exactly explicit. i just don't get it. i would vventure to say that most people who read these do NOT recognize that in Bakker's invented universe women are objectively, inherently inferior. that is the sort of thing that finds its way into reviews and discussions and what not. i'd not read about it until i stumbled onto this board and posted all those stellar posts and made such a great impression on everyone.
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