A Memory of Light (Vols I & II & III)

[Werthead]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1702835' date='Feb 27 2009, 23.29']Of relevance to the length issue is ASOS being split into two volumes for the UK MMPB. Wikipedia fails to give me a word count estimate for ASOS, but tells me that the US MMPB was 1216 pages long - so longer, Gormenghast, than the range you give for Atlas Shrugged. If any enlightened person on here has an ASOS word count, please chip in. Although the final word count of AMOL is as yet unconfirmed, having a reference point would be most interesting.[/quote]

The editions of [i]Atlas Shrugged[/i] that have the full text contained within 1200 pages are either physically huge or have the smallest typeface known to man.

The wordcount of ASoS I believe hovers around the 400,000 mark. Tad Williams' [i]To Green Angel Tower[/i], the longest modern epic fantasy novel I know of, is about 450,000 and in the one-volume hardcover is 1150 pages of tiny print.

The three novels of Peter F. Hamilton's [b]Night's Dawn Trilogy[/b] chime in between 350,000 (for the first book) and about 400,000 (for the third). The third book is almost 1300 pages in mmpb and 1150 in hardcover, making it the longest SF novel ever published (if you don't consider the aforementioned [i]Atlas Shrugged[/i] to be SF). Macmillan publishes all three in one-volume paperbacks in the UK.

So for a 700,000-word book, you are talking about something literally twice the length of PFH's [i]The Reality Dysfunction[/i]: 935 pages in hardcover, 1,230 in mmpb, and that's with a fairly small font size.

There is no SF&F imprint currently in existence that would publish any novel that is 1,870 pages in hardcover, or 2,470 pages in mmpb. It may be doable for the hardcover - some encyclopedias are thicker - but the paperback is utterly beyond the realms of plausibility. Even if it wasn't, both Tor and Orbit would have to price the book so high (to pay for the special printing and binding systems that would be necessary for this project and unlikely to be used again in the near future) that they would drive away many customers.

[Calibandar]

Wert

I would add as a reason that the fact that Sanderson is already a TOR author may well have played into it as well.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1702897' date='Feb 28 2009, 00.30']I would add as a reason that the fact that Sanderson is already a TOR author may well have played into it as well.[/quote]

I think it helped in the selection process (I believe it was Tom Doherty who sent a stack of books to Harriet to check out some of the possible authors, including Sanderson), but he would have had to sign a new contract for AMoL anyway, so from that POV it wasn't an issue.

I'd be interested to see if Orbit are going to publish the rest of Sanderson's books off the back of AMoL though. I'm surprised he hasn't picked up a UK publisher so far.

[Jussi]

Sanderson's books are coming from Gollancz:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Final-Empire-Mistborn-Book-1/dp/0575089911/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235849301&sr=1-9"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Final-Empire-Mistb...9301&sr=1-9[/url]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Well-Ascension-Mistborn-Book-2/dp/0575089938/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235849339&sr=1-4"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Well-Ascension-Mis...9339&sr=1-4[/url]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hero-Ages-Mistborn-Book-3/dp/0575089946/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235849361&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hero-Ages-Mistborn...9361&sr=1-1[/url]

[Sword of the Morning]

Some thoughts on this:

1. Werthead, I'm curious how you arrived at 50,000 words that Jordan contributed? From my understanding of Brandon and Harriet's wishes, they really did not want things to turn into a "how much did Jordan write, how much did Brandon write" scenario. Perhaps many years later when Jordan's complete notes are published (ala Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series) we may finally know for sure exactly how much work Jordan did on the last book.

I personally thought he had done a bit more work than just 50,000 words. If this TRULY was how much had been written, I am a bit amazed at Sanderson's prolific speed as he essentially tossed out over 450,000 words (as much as Storm of Swords essentially) in about 8-9 months??

He's good, he's young, and he's pretty fast, but not this good, not this fast. If large segments of the book were truly completely UNWRITTEN and only outlined, Brandon would still have to get to the nitty-gritty of writing dialogue, descriptions, etc and all of which takes place in another author's world. I just can't buy that he could have done this so quickly without large portions of the work (and probably the more important and complicated parts) already having been written.

It's hard to believe either Harriet, Tor, or Brandon confirming to ANYONE exactly what word count was Jordan's because of the above.

2. I think it is important not to judge Brandon Sanderson by the books that he has written so far. Elantris and the Mistborn Trilogy are solid works but they do not compare obviously to Wheel of Time. Nor are they meant to. I think it is a mistake to think that Brandon's work on Memory of Light will be similar in style to his previousn novels. He has written extensively about this on his blog if any of you wish to read it.

Jordan was 42 years old when Eye of the World was published. The story had gestated in his mind for over a decade. He had been through two tours in Vietnam, awarded multiple medals for heroism, killed people in the line of duty, and almost been killed in return. The depth of his life experiences at that age was far beyond that of most of us today and Brandon Sanderson in particular. To expect that Sanderson at his age and development as an author can hope to come close to duplicating Jordan's style and depth is not realistic.

But the important thing is he doesn't have to. Sanderson is a young and professional author with an excellent track record and excellent skills. Jordan left behind extremely detailed notes with many important scenes completely written. All Sanderson has to do is put all of it together into a cohesive whole and he should be able to do it without too much problems.

The STORY is all there and in much more detail than I think any of us can expect.

From all indications, I think that Sanderson has what it takes to bring it together in a way that will please many of us Wheel of Time fans.

3. As for splitting the book, the only thing about that that bothers me is it does take away a bit of flexibility. Suppose in finishing the last half of the book, Brandon or Harriet realize they want to make some changes, additions, deletions in the first half? If published, that would obviously no longer be an option.

My only thought on this is that A Memory of Light has been so densely and detailed plotted and structured that reworking on that type of scale would be very unlikely. From my understanding, the book has been laid out literally chapter by chapter, scene by scene, event by event. There isn't too much wriggle room or space for improvisation. Sanderson will have to put together dialogue and description for some parts but it is all flesh on a very rigid skeleton. If that is the case, then publishing the first volume while continuing along that vein for the rest of the book shouldn't be an issue.

It is instructive to remember that many authors write like movies are made. They don't write in a chronoogical or sequential manner. They skip around, write one story arc in the middle or the end first, go from one character to another and then "edit" all the parts together into a whole. With A Memory of Light, it appears Brandon is not doing that. He truly is going through the writing in absolute order which again lends support to the meticulous outlining involved.

Finally, having read his blog and his approach to the book, I have to say that I think Harriet made a great choice. I never read anywhere that Brandon had a "vastly different" style than Jordan's. He merely stated that his style was "different" and this is obvious. No one author writes like another. But I think Harriet chose him after reading Mistborn because she saw in his style the same dedication to character that Jordan had and there was enough there that made her believe he was the best person for the job. And when that choice is made by a woman who's been married and lived with the man for years and whose edited all 11 previous books in the series . . . well I think I have to trust her that she knows what she is doing.

We'll all know for better or worse this fall when part one is in our hands and I for one can't wait.

[SquireThomas]

[quote]And when that choice is made by a woman who's been married and lived with the man for years and whose edited all 11 previous books in the series . . . well I think I have to trust her that she knows what she is doing.[/quote]

But why? I always thought the biggest weakness in Jordan's books was the stunning [i]lack[/i] of editing, and I think most people would agree. You really think a decent editor would have let PoD to CoT out? If this is Harriet's claim to fame, I think we're all overestimating her.

I'm still going to get the book when it comes out: I've read 11 already, no point in stopping now. Still, I think you guys are really optimistic: Sword's post aside, most reports I've read put Jordan's contributions at 10%, tops. I don't care how detailed his notes are, if 90% of the book is written by another author, it's just not going to be the same. I can't shake the feeling that the series is already over: the true author is dead, after all.

[Ran]

To be fair, no matter who the editor was, those books would have come out. They may have been a wee bit tighter, but they would have come out. I think RJ's meandering was a shame, but it seems to have been his approach to dealing with structural issues that seven books had combined to create. Some authors might slave away for years to try and get through the issues in as tight a manner as they can manage (*cough*), others might prefer to just keep the flow of writing going and let the resolution of structural issues resolve themselves once they've written enough.

If RJ was doing the latter, I don't see his editors telling him, "No, you cannot get yourself out of the issues that way just because that's how you write!"

[Shryke]

Those aren't very long to begin with though.(compared to the rest of the series anyway)

[SquireThomas]

[quote]To be fair, no matter who the editor was, those books would have come out. They may have been a wee bit tighter, but they would have come out. I think RJ's meandering was a shame, but it seems to have been his approach to dealing with structural issues that seven books had combined to create. Some authors might slave away for years to try and get through the issues in as tight a manner as they can manage (*cough*), others might prefer to just keep the flow of writing going and let the resolution of structural issues resolve themselves once they've written enough.

If RJ was doing the latter, I don't see his editors telling him, "No, you cannot get yourself out of the issues that way just because that's how you write!"[/quote]

Maybe, but it's not like the first 7 books were marvels of editing either. Only EotW and maybe TDR and TSR are very tightly edited. As much as I always did enjoy Jordan (minus PoD and friends), he really could have used a good editor a long, LONG time ago.

[ldygrffn]

What he did do was make extensive notes, and recordings of himself discussing the plot threads with his close friends and family. Sanderson is working off these, so I don't think "bare bones" is the right term. -samcurtis (sorry, don't know how to do the quote thing, tried, didn't work)

so, if this is true, it doesn't really matter how much he had actually written down IMO, i.e. wordcounts of RJ's contribution. i am a crappy author not worthy to publish until i have practiced at least ten more years, but most of my plots for books and the complicated storylines are on my little recorder, so i can relisten over and over again, and that is the best way i have found to keep track of my nonsense, so if sanderson is working off recorded discussions of the books, by the author, he's got a lot of info.

and on a different note, if he doesn't have every detail of what cut and color egwene's dress is, and exactly where every hair on her head is resting, i'm really more than okay with it.

[Werthead]

[quote]1. Werthead, I'm curious how you arrived at 50,000 words that Jordan contributed? From my understanding of Brandon and Harriet's wishes, they really did not want things to turn into a "how much did Jordan write, how much did Brandon write" scenario. Perhaps many years later when Jordan's complete notes are published (ala Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth series) we may finally know for sure exactly how much work Jordan did on the last book.[/quote]

Or we could just look at [url="http://peterahlstrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/rolling-up-wheel-of-time-panel.html"]Tom Doherty's statements at Worldcon from last year[/url].

[quote]Jim always said he knew the ending of the series, Tom says. And when he was working on A Memory of Light, he wrote the ending. That plus the prologue and the rest of what he wrote totaled 200 manuscript pages [that’s about 50,000 words].[/quote]

[quote]I personally thought he had done a bit more work than just 50,000 words. If this TRULY was how much had been written, I am a bit amazed at Sanderson's prolific speed as he essentially tossed out over 450,000 words (as much as Storm of Swords essentially) in about 8-9 months??[/quote]

Well, 350,000 words, which is about what Steven Erikson churns out in 8 months, so it isn't unprecedented.

[quote]It's hard to believe either Harriet, Tor, or Brandon confirming to ANYONE exactly what word count was Jordan's because of the above.[/quote]

Well, they did.

[quote]Some authors might slave away for years to try and get through the issues in as tight a manner as they can manage (*cough*), others might prefer to just keep the flow of writing going and let the resolution of structural issues resolve themselves once they've written enough.[/quote]

Jordan made a monumentally bad call here. Even if you think Books 1-6/7 and 11 are fantastic and even if AMoL is the best epic fantasy novel(s) ever written, people are still going to be slagging off the series for the volumes 8-10 debacle. Jordan's response to Book 10's issues was to 'publish and be damned' rather than rewrite the whole thing and stick another two years on the writing process, and damned it was, and the series as a whole suffers from it and will remain a substantially flawed work for that.

[Joanna vander Poele]

[quote name='SquireThomas' post='1703831' date='Mar 1 2009, 00.51']Maybe, but it's not like the first 7 books were marvels of editing either. [b]Only EotW[/b] and maybe TDR and TSR [b]are very tightly edited[/b]. As much as I always did enjoy Jordan (minus PoD and friends), he really could have used a good editor a long, LONG time ago.[/quote]
Really?

[SquireThomas]

Heh, yeah, you're right. I guess what I meant to say was relatively tightly edited, by Jordan standards, anyway. In comparison to later books the amount of totally superfluous material was on the lower end, as opposed to, for example, the notorious "Elayne takes a bath" chapter of CoT. This really reinforces my point thought: Jordan's shitty editing was always his Achilles' heal, and if that was the part his wife was in charge of...well, let me just say it doesn't fill me with great confidence.

[irriadin]

The thing that I can't understand is that, in spite of all the people claiming Jordan needed a "real" editor, I have seen more than one book dedicated to Harriet (NOT by Jordan. Orson Scott Card is one, I've forgotten the other).

[Werthead]

[quote name='irriadin' post='1704146' date='Mar 1 2009, 22.48']The thing that I can't understand is that, in spite of all the people claiming Jordan needed a "real" editor, I have seen more than one book dedicated to Harriet (NOT by Jordan. Orson Scott Card is one, I've forgotten the other).[/quote]

Yeah, Harriet was working with Tom Doherty for years before she met RJ, and IIRC she met him through professional circles before their relationship took off.

[Sword of the Morning]

Hi Werthead!

Followed your link and read it. FASCINATING read, thank you very much for that.

Well, that's confirmed then, 50,000 words directly written by Jordan which is definitely a lot less than I had thought.

It also reveals some very interesting aspects of the story which I won't post here because there are some actually decent spoilers in that link.

I think that it is interesting that at first estimate, Brandon felt the complete work would be close to 500,000 words or so and now writing things out it is looking closer to 750,000 words.

Still, it seems that the structure of the last novel appears to be extremely tightly plotted and controlled and Jordan appears to have left behind enough detail to give us a very, very good sense of what his final book would have looked like had he lived to finish it in terms of plot and character arc resolutions.

The STYLE will change somewhat but I'm not entirely sure if I'm too bothered by that. As long as it is written by a professional author who is good enough at his craft to somewhat submerge his style into Jordan's with Harriet guiding him, I think I will be happy enough with it.

By the way, I'm not necessarily intimating that Harriet is a GOOD editor. At this point, for better or worse, that train has left the station. Reading between the lines, this will probably be the WORST edited book in the entire Wheel of Time. We know for a fact that every word Jordan wrote is going to be in this thing. Furthermore, every single character arc, side adventure, etc in his outlines are going to be included as well.

Who knows what would have happened if Jordan was alive? He might have willingly cut a few side events or characters out himself to "tighten" the story and keep the momentum moving. Maybe a 700,000 word manuscript might have been trimmed down to 500,000 or 600,000.

Harriet's major role in this is to make sure that the overall feel and tone of the last book is in the same ballpark as the last 11 books so that there isn't any jarring shifts when we go from Knife of Dreams to A Memory of Light. And that's what I meant about trusting her.

What I don't want is to read the book and feel like I'm reading a completely different author and I don't think that's going to happen here . . .

Dennis

[Larry.]

Looks as though [url="http://www.createyourcountdown.com/page/torbooks"]Nov. 3, 2009[/url] will be the US release of at least Part I of AMoL. Received that just now in my email from Tor.com.

[Joanna vander Poele]

[quote name='Sword of the Morning' post='1704214' date='Mar 1 2009, 16.52']By the way, I'm not necessarily intimating that Harriet is a GOOD editor. At this point, for better or worse, that train has left the station. [b]Reading between the lines, this will probably be the WORST edited book in the entire Wheel of Time.[/b] We know for a fact that every word Jordan wrote is going to be in this thing. Furthermore, every single character arc, side adventure, etc in his outlines are going to be included as well.[/quote]
What.

[theMountainGoat]

[quote name='Zach H' post='1702779' date='Feb 27 2009, 22.46']I still think they should release a Jordan-only edition made up of notes and the prose sections he finished. Seems like a win/win for Tor. Hardcore fans would probably buy the Sanderson book and the Jordan-only note book, and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of former WoT readers would let their sense of curiosity/nostalgia get the better of them and buy the Jordan-only book just to see how things ended.[/quote]
As I understand it Jordan was notorious about not letting anybody seeing his unfinished writing and notes, apparently not even Harriet saw them until a few weeks before his death and I believe she intends to follow his wishes in this regard and that kind of "making of" or "original author notes" style book will never be published.

[Werthead]

[quote name='serMountainGoat' post='1704591' date='Mar 2 2009, 12.43']As I understand it Jordan was notorious about not letting anybody seeing his unfinished writing and notes, apparently not even Harriet saw them until a few weeks before his death and I believe she intends to follow his wishes in this regard and that kind of "making of" or "original author notes" style book will never be published.[/quote]

Sanderson has said that some kind of companion book to AMoL which would feature his traditional annotations plus Jordan's notes for that book alone is a possibility he has mentioned to Tor and Harriet. Apparently they haven't ruled it out.

Furthermore, apparently Jordan said before his death that his notes for the entire series could be donated to a university, as Tolkien's original manuscripts and notes for [i]The Hobbit[/i] and [i]The Lord of the Rings [/i]were. I'm not sure if that means anyone at all could go in, look at them and write a [b]History of Middle-earth[/b]-style book about [b]WoT[/b], but that certainly seems possible.