Quality Actor for The Hound

[Venardhi]

Selmy seems like old power to me, I never got the impression of him being anything out of the ordinary, raised from lower blood, etc. Also him being of a different appearance than the majority of the Westerosi makes the fact that he is from Westeros (and thus of particular interest to Dany) take some unnecessary exposition to clear up. The Cleganes have extenuating circumstances that put them in a place of power which allows for more flexibility with their nationality, especially considering there will be other Summer Islanders in the first season. if you wanted to make Melisandre or all the Targaryens asian though, that would be fine by me as long as they suited their characters in every other way.

[Son of a Craster]

Venardhi, I respect your point, but as pointed out before the problems are:

- you need to explain how this came to be, not just raising up a kennelmaster to lord, but how a black kennelmaster came to Westeros in the first place. And then again how it even is that someone is good with dogs as those are mostly kept and trained in Westeros as far as I know (but that's more of a detail).

- the complexion of skin does have an influence on character development. I wouldn't be who I am if I were black or yellow or brown or red and nor would Gregor or more importantly Sandor. It does change how one is perceived even if it is ever so slightly. That's not PC, but that's (a harsh) reality.

- Sandor's burns will have a more stark contrast against white (stepping away from the PC line here :) )

- Sandor's character's issues by modern viewers might be explained away as being related to his skin colour (even if they are not in Westeros). Which would lessen the perceived beauty of Sandor's character.

- and to conclude, the realism will be totally skewed. Yes, racism does not seem as much a problem in Westeros, as I imagine it also wasn't in medieval Europe. Simply because these are not multicultural societies. Take America not too long ago (uhm.. maybe even today) or present day South-Africa. A lot of the racism comes from putting two cultures together, giving one better chances/assets than the other and lo and behold.. social unrest/racism ensues.

Given that Westeros is relatively free of racism as we know it today and have known it for the past couple of hundred years, there would still be issues bestowing a lordship on a black man in that kind of society, however. As we are reminded in AFfC, it is important for the High Septon to crown/bless the King. Power in medieval and Westerosi society in the eyes of the larger public, derives from the gods and trickles down through lordships. It is the only suitable explanation of why you should let anyone rule over you. Sheer power alone is not enough, as the rebellious sparrows in AFfC illustrate once more (there is also some interesting literature and historic evidence on this part). Even in the absence of racism, it would be hard for peasant to except that a non-Andal would rule over him by godly decree.

*although I would not be the one to pose the question before Gregor*.

And that of the talent pool... come on.. that's a non-argument. That's like saying.. let's consider letting John Travolta play Dany with a wig on, because he's soooo talented. There are plenty of talented actors that could play the part (they could even cgi someone into looking taller -> see LoTR and Xerxes in 300).

Having said all that.. whose for Gregor being an Orthodox Jew!! COME ON... Raise those hands!!

[The Pita]

Gregor as an Orthodox Jew is the greatest idea ever. I can imagine a huge dinner feast, and he's sitting on the side, and he kills someone who tries serving him food. "Yom Kippur, meatbag."

[Chairman7w]

Gregor as an Orthodox Jew is the greatest idea ever. I can imagine a huge dinner feast, and he's sitting on the side, and he kills someone who tries serving him food. "Yom Kippur, meatbag."

LOL! Now that's funny!

[WhiteHaven]

Guys dont worry - HBO has just great series - they will make this show kickass. Like Rome, like the Sopranos, like The Wire, like Band of Brothers and so on :)

[Dire Wolf Summer]

I cant' believe the level of intelligence in this thread. :thumbsdown:

Westeros is entirely fictional, unlike Rome where citizens with black skin would stand out. Selmy being oriental in appearance would be acceptable if he fits the physical profile. Tall, muscular, lean, aged, and WHITE BEARD. It has to blend with the character.

Maester Luwin in a wheelchair would also be acceptable. He is frail, not physically intimidating, smart enough to manage his disability with a wheelchair like he did for Bran with Dancer.

Gregor being an Orthodox Jew. Didn't seem to think the ASOIAF Gregor woudl belong to any kind of congregation.

About the uproar about black Cleganes, tell me where in the book does the color of their skin matter to them like Jaime, Renly, Loras, Cersei, Dany, Drogo, or

I only suggested Honsou because he can be mean looking and an excellent actor. Duncan because he is huge. If you can suggest some other actors, regardless of skin color, you are welcome to do so. For Gregor, let's cast the great WWE actor, Kevin Nash.

See, it's that easy. Why limit yourself to actors with white skin when some characters don't necessarily need to be white?

[Dire Wolf Summer]

And that of the talent pool... come on.. that's a non-argument. That's like saying.. let's consider letting John Travolta play Dany with a wig on, because he's soooo talented. There are plenty of talented actors that could play the part (they could even cgi someone into looking taller -> see LoTR and Xerxes in 300).

Yup! You are Craster's son.

[dolorous_edd]

I cant' believe the level of intelligence in this thread. :thumbsdown:

Maester Luwin in a wheelchair would also be acceptable. He is frail, not physically intimidating, smart enough to manage his disability with a wheelchair like he did for Bran with Dancer.

I can't believe your level of intelligence. :)

Winterfell is full of towers with winding stairs and unpaved grounds. Not exactly the type of place one can get around in a wheelchair.

Westeros is brutal and politically incorrect. But let's have randomly black characters and characters in wheelchairs anyway. And let's cut out any slurs directed at Jon for being a bastard or Tyrion for being a dwarf.

Yes, ASOIAF is fictional. But what separates it from the rest of the genre and what makes it great is its realism. At times one can almost forget it's fantasy because the medieval elements are so well-written.

[About Yea High]

Have to go with Edd on this one, but let's keep personal insults down, mm? Making the Cleganes black would in my opinion single out the two most recognizably vicious and violent characters (at least in the first season) and put them in the wrong light. It could almost be read as "Look at how ferocious blacks are being depicted - they're either Summer Island savages in feathers or they're bloodthirsty brutes!"

It's a change that goes against canon (the Cleganes are Westerosi) and would work against the story.

Luwen in a wheelchair changes far too much. How does he get around those towers? That's a legitimate question, because unless you change the tech level of George R. R. Martin's world, you essentially have a useless maester. Bran's disability is lessened by that - why wouldn't Luwen make a wheelchair for him rather than have Hodor carry him around? It also lessens Tyrion's contribution of the saddle.

This is a world in which disabilities are looked down upon - moreso even than in our world.

Back to race ... I think Westeros should stay European. Let's inject our color and flavor from across the sea.

As I've said in other casting threads: we really have no idea where Bronn is from, and Martin never made him Caucasian per se. While Honshu would in my opinion be wrong for the role, a more gritty, urban actor like Michael K. Williams or even Common would be considered a strong change-up to a very white (at least in season 1) cast.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Have to go with Edd on this one, but let's keep personal insults down, mm? Making the Cleganes black would in my opinion single out the two most recognizably vicious and violent characters (at least in the first season) and put them in the wrong light. It could almost be read as "Look at how ferocious blacks are being depicted - they're either Summer Island savages in feathers or they're bloodthirsty brutes!"

It's a change that goes against canon (the Cleganes are Westerosi) and would work against the story.

Luwen in a wheelchair changes far too much. How does he get around those towers? That's a legitimate question, because unless you change the tech level of George R. R. Martin's world, you essentially have a useless maester. Bran's disability is lessened by that - why wouldn't Luwen make a wheelchair for him rather than have Hodor carry him around? It also lessens Tyrion's contribution of the saddle.

This is a world in which disabilities are looked down upon - moreso even than in our world.

Back to race ... I think Westeros should stay European. Let's inject our color and flavor from across the sea.

As I've said in other casting threads: we really have no idea where Bronn is from, and Martin never made him Caucasian per se. While Honshu would in my opinion be wrong for the role, a more gritty, urban actor like Michael K. Williams or even Common would be considered a strong change-up to a very white (at least in season 1) cast.

Yes, differences in colour should exist only where it is easily explainable (with Bronn being an excellent example). If i'm honest, it does beg the question that the only Westerosi black roles we are discussing appear to be the Cleganes (black people are best at violent roles?). Its like, Gregor is badass, i know, have a black guy play him! Perfect!

Stick with canon for those two. Lets end that particular argument. Bronn's ethnicity can certainly be played with however.

[Mike]

Yes, differences in colour should exist only where it is easily explainable (with Bronn being an excellent example). If i'm honest, it does beg the question that the only Westerosi black roles we are discussing appear to be the Cleganes (black people are best at violent roles?). Its like, Gregor is badass, i know, have a black guy play him! Perfect!

Stick with canon for those two. Lets end that particular argument. Bronn's ethnicity can certainly be played with however.

In another Hound casting thread (in Casting), someone suggested Idris Elba. I felt that Elba, moreso than any suggestion that I had seen yet, would nail that role, and then responded that if color did not matter then Chiwetal Ejiofor would make a fantastic Ned (I still do, but unfornately, skin color does matter). I think the idea to cast a black actor in the part of Sandor Clegane is given credence because A) It can be explained well enough and B) folks seem torn between great actor/huge guy for the role of The Hound, and no one can seem to come up with a suggestion that adequately fulfills both criteria (I've suggested Kevin Durand, who is big enough, but many aren't sure that he has the acting chops - imho, he would be great). The Idris Elba suggestion is perfect...if Elba was white or Clegane black. Reading over this thread, I think that I have come to your side of the argument, but I will say that it is a damn shame. Stringer Bell as The Hound. Man, that would have kicked so much ass.

Omar as Bronn? Indeed.

[Dire Wolf Summer]

Winterfell is full of towers with winding stairs and unpaved grounds. Not exactly the type of place one can get around in a wheelchair.

Geez, the lift in The Wall must be magical then.

Of all people, Dolorous Edd should know about that.

I'm not trying to be politically correct. But if you would choose between an unknown white actor and a proven non-white actor but who "might" fit character, wouldn't you do it?

Just sayin.

[Dire Wolf Summer]

(black people are best at violent roles?). Its like, Gregor is badass, i know, have a black guy play him! Perfect!

Stick with canon for those two. Lets end that particular argument. Bronn's ethnicity can certainly be played with however.

Ser,

I am an avid reader of your posts. They are not only instructional but humorous at times.

But there is not stereotyping in my posts though. It's only a suggestion thread for a "QUALITY ACTOR FOR THE HOUND". No attempts for Racial Equality Here.

"Bronn's ethnicity can certainly be played with however" Why? Because he's a "playa".

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

In another Hound casting thread (in Casting), someone suggested Idris Elba. I felt that Elba, moreso than any suggestion that I had seen yet, would nail that role, and then responded that if color did not matter then Chiwetal Ejiofor would make a fantastic Ned (I still do, but unfornately, skin color does matter). I think the idea to cast a black actor in the part of Sandor Clegane is given credence because A) It can be explained well enough and B) folks seem torn between great actor/huge guy for the role of The Hound, and no one can seem to come up with a suggestion that adequately fulfills both criteria (I've suggested Kevin Durand, who is big enough, but many aren't sure that he has the acting chops - imho, he would be great). The Idris Elba suggestion is perfect...if Elba was white or Clegane black. Reading over this thread, I think that I have come to your side of the argument, but I will say that it is a damn shame. Stringer Bell as The Hound. Man, that would have kicked so much ass.

Omar as Bronn? Indeed.

Of course, if we are talking about ethnicity we have to talk about both Cleganes, one can't be one colour with the other something else. So if we decide to cast Sandor with a black actor, inevitably Gregor must also be black, and that could quite easily cause a fan-backlash.

Never heard of Idris Elba, will look him up.

Dire: More because he's a mercenary, with no lineage. He's never referenced in that way, so you could easily get away with it. Plus, he doesnt read like a steriotypical black guy (like GREGOR might). I'm just being realistic dude.

[dolorous_edd]

Geez, the lift in The Wall must be magical then.

Of all people, Dolorous Edd should know about that.

I'm not trying to be politically correct. But if you would choose between an unknown white actor and a proven non-white actor but who "might" fit character, wouldn't you do it?

Just sayin.

The Wall has a lift because it's 700 feet high. The Eyrie has one because it's at the top of a very high mountain. There are no others that I can recall. Putting in elevators at Winterfell so we can have a handicapped Maester Luwin is completely unnecessary and changes the way Westeros is perceived.

And your choice of "an unknown white actor and a proven non-white actor" is a false one. If you check the Hound casting threads, you'll see plenty of suggestions for proven white actors who could do the role justice.

Like Ser_not_yet_appearing, I have to wonder why some people would like to see the Cleganes played by black actors. I wonder why there's no similar movement to see, for example, Melisandre portrayed by a black actress. It certainly can't be because big, violent men easily equates to black in some people's minds but beautiful, powerful woman doesn't equate to black as easily.

[Dire Wolf Summer]

If you check the Hound casting threads, you'll see plenty of suggestions for proven white actors who could do the role justice.

Will do Edd.

Will do.

[Mike]

Of course, if we are talking about ethnicity we have to talk about both Cleganes, one can't be one colour with the other something else. So if we decide to cast Sandor with a black actor, inevitably Gregor must also be black, and that could quite easily cause a fan-backlash.

Never heard of Idris Elba, will look him up.

Agreed, but no one gives a shit about who plays Gregor just so long as that guy is a house. It's all about Sandor because he's the Omar/Swearengen of this series, and it will take a quality actor with the necessary physicality to pull him off. And so for this truth, along with the reasons I gave in my previous post, the Cleganes are the only characters we've discussed as changing to black. Not a racial thing, just a Sandor thing.

You mentioned Michael K. Williams as Bronn and you don't know who Idris Elba is? That just threw me for a loop. Dude, check out The Wire from HBO. Best 60 or so hours of television I've ever watched. I'm almost jealous of you for getting to watch it for the 1st time.

[The Pita]

Idris Elba has a British accent... the mind boggles. MY MIND HAS BOGGLES. Here's my thought: Why is Michael K Williams a shoe-in for black Bronn? Why not Elba? Bronn is never described as thin, just not a huge hulking warrior like Gregor or Sandor. And Elba doesn't hulk. He's big, but I figure you have to be a little big to be a warrior in ASOIAF. Just saying that if we're going for The Wire actors for Bronn, I'm thinking Elba would do the part a little more justice than Williams if only because he's known to have an excellent British accent while Williams isn't.

EDIT - Gregor should be more than a house. He should look like Sandor. They should cast Sandor, and then snoop around for people of elephantine proportions who look like their other actor.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Agreed, but no one gives a shit about who plays Gregor just so long as that guy is a house. It's all about Sandor because he's the Omar/Swearengen of this series, and it will take a quality actor with the necessary physicality to pull him off. And so for this truth, along with the reasons I gave in my previous post, the Cleganes are the only characters we've discussed as changing to black. Not a racial thing, just a Sandor thing.

You mentioned Michael K. Williams as Bronn and you don't know who Idris Elba is? That just threw me for a loop. Dude, check out The Wire from HBO. Best 60 or so hours of television I've ever watched. I'm almost jealous of you for getting to watch it for the 1st time.

LOL, i didn't realise he was Stringer. Yes i do now know who he is. He could easily play Bronn actually, or Sandor.

To clarify, in an ideal world i wouldn't care what ethnicity the cleganes had, but i'm worried about making them both black. It would look pretty dodgy, and i don't want to jeopardise things.

[Son of a Craster]

Dire Wolf Summer... what the bleeb?... *insert pun about intelligence* :P

Let me just recap that I do believe Gregor could be perfectly portrayed as an Orthodox Jew, preferably with blue eyes, a soft blonde beard and a sincere dislike of Palestinians (since he's from the West)!