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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Where is it stated that House Fossoway of New Barrel is a knightly house and that Jon Fossoway bears the titel "The Knight of New Barrel"?

According to the app, "Cider Hall is the seat of the elder branch of House Fossoway, knights sworn to Highgarden." The app doesn't have entries for Jon Fossoway or New Barrel. Jon is described in the appendices as of the green-apple Fossoways and one of Mace Tyrell's knights and sworn swords. He seems highly regarded in ACOK, but I don't see specific mention of "Knight of New Barrel".

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16 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So nothing on the Fossoways of New Barrel then?

At least at the time of the Dance of the Dragons the Fossoways were a lordly house, and wiki states that they still are. I think the entries containing the "Knight of New Barrel" thing need to be changed, apparently we don't know the status of the Fossoways of New Barrel.

I think New Barrel has only been mentioned in supplemental info (like GRRM's notes to Elio and Linda for the Citadel). Since the app describes the Fossoways as "knights sworn to Highgarden", it can be mentioned as being semi-canonical. The "Raymun Fossoway" entry states, "By the time of King Robert Baratheon, the green-apple Fossoways had become an established cadet branch of the red-apple Fossoways". All of the Fossoways have been described as knights, with the exception of Lord Owen from TPATQ. The specific title "Knight of New Barrel" shouldn't be included without a source, though.

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On ‎8‎-‎3‎-‎2016 at 9:01 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

So nothing on the Fossoways of New Barrel then?

At least at the time of the Dance of the Dragons the Fossoways were a lordly house, and wiki states that they still are. I think the entries containing the "Knight of New Barrel" thing need to be changed, apparently we don't know the status of the Fossoways of New Barrel.

This is odd because  at the time of the Ashford tourney Ser Steffon was promised Lordship as a reward for siding with Maekar and his sons in the trial of Seven. Why would he need to be promised the title of Lord if they where already Lord's? So i think whe should be cautius about the Lordly status of the House Fossoway.

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16 minutes ago, direpupy said:

This is odd because  at the time of the Ashford tourney Ser Steffon was promised Lordship as a reward for siding with Maekar and his sons in the trial of Seven. Why would he need to be promised the title of Lord if they where already Lord's? So i think whe should be cautius about the Lordly status of the House Fossoway.

We don't know if Steffon was the heir to Cider Hall, but the fact that he would be elevated to the status of lord within a day might suggest he was going to be granted a seat of his own, which would be an elevation for a younger son even if his father was a Lord.

 

The Fossoways of New Barrel are a branch of the house, and while the Fossoways of Cider Hall appear to be lords, that doesn't automatically make the Fossoways of New Barrel lords as well, I think. In part, I suppose, that depends on how closely Raymund was related to the head of Hours Fossoway when he formed his own House.

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Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We don't know if Steffon was the heir to Cider Hall, but the fact that he would be elevated to the status of lord within a day might suggest he was going to be granted a seat of his own, which would be an elevation for a younger son even if his father was a Lord.

 

The Fossoways of New Barrel are a branch of the house, and while the Fossoways of Cider Hall appear to be lords, that doesn't automatically make the Fossoways of New Barrel lords as well, I think. In part, I suppose, that depends on how closely Raymund was related to the head of Hours Fossoway when he formed his own House.

The wiki say's that he is but it has no reference as to where this info came from, so this would have to be changed then.

Arguably we cant be certain if the House Fossoway was not striped of there Lordly status at some point, and Steffon could whery well have been the head of the house at the time. His position in the house is never stated afterall.

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Since this is really bothering me i have taken a closer look into this and apart from Lord Owen Fossoway there is really no other mention of Lordship in regards to House Fossoway. So the Lordly status of House Fossoway of Cider Hall is based entirely one this one mention of a single member being a Lord.

Al other members that are mentioned are Knights, from the current members Ser Tanton Fossoway, Ser Bryan Fossoway, Ser Edwyd Fossoway, to historical members Ser Steffon Fossoway, Ser Raymun Fossoway, Ser Derrick Fossoway, "the Bad Apple".

And we do know that Lordship can be striped from a house as per the example of House Connington and House Osgrey. So it is not impossible that they where Lord's but lost there Lordship, hell the promise of Lordship to Steffon may have been as simple as a return of a stripped Lordship something Maekar could probably arrange much easyer than an entire new Lordship with lands to go with it.

As for a reason for the Lordship to be lost, wel we don't know on wich side the Fossoway's where in the first Blackfire rebellion.

Off course this is al speculation and wiki wise not much can and should be changed right now exept the part where Steffon is being called the heir to Cider Hall for wich there is no reference. I do think we should be on the lookout for new references in upcoming books because right now the evidence for them being lord's is rather flimsy.

Edited by direpupy
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4 hours ago, direpupy said:

Off course this is al speculation and wiki wise not much can and should be changed right now exept the part where Steffon is being called the heir to Cider Hall for wich there is no reference. I do think we should be on the lookout for new references in upcoming books because right now the evidence for them being lord's is rather flimsy.

I found the reference! He's listed as the heir to Cider Hall in the graphic novel collection. Added the reference

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16 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I found the reference! He's listed as the heir to Cider Hall in the graphic novel collection. Added the reference

Okay that's good, but that does make it rather strange that he was promised Lordship since he was already going to be Lord of Cider Hall. This really reinforces the idea that they lost the Lordship somewhere between the Dance of Dragons and the Ashford tourney.

Or alternatively Owen Fossoway being called Lord in the PatQ is a mistake.

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I've got a question regarding the politics of using images from The World of Ice and Fire. Under most of the image files it is stated: "This work is copyrighted, the copyright holder has granted permission for this image to be used in Wiki of Song of Ice and Fire. This permission does not extend to third parties." But in contrast to many other files the wording of the permission isn't given, so I started wondering if anyone asked the publisher (it seems that the artists themselves weren't asked) for permission at all. Can anyone tell me the source of that permission?

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19 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I've got a question regarding the politics of using images from The World of Ice and Fire. Under most of the image files it is stated: "This work is copyrighted, the copyright holder has granted permission for this image to be used in Wiki of Song of Ice and Fire. This permission does not extend to third parties." But in contrast to many other files the wording of the permission isn't given, so I started wondering if anyone asked the publisher (it seems that the artists themselves weren't asked) for permission at all. Can anyone tell me the source of that permission?

I'm not sure who is supposed to give the authorisation in this case: the artists or the publisher. You could ask the users who uploaded the images, I suppose, and see what results that gives.

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30 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Maybe we could depict the changing seats and lords within the Noble House templates?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=Sandbox&oldid=181786

Sure.. Though Robb is still the Lord of Winterfell until his death in ASOS, so ASOS shouldn't say "scattered", imo.

 

Should "Winterfell burned" be stated in the infobox?

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'm not sure who is supposed to give the authorisation in this case: the artists or the publisher. You could ask the users who uploaded the images, I suppose, and see what results that gives.

Thanks for the advise, I'm going to ask them.

Some time ago I tried to get the permission for using the images on the German Ice and Fire Wikia, so I asked the German publisher that told me the copyright was with the artists. Then I addressed myself to one of the artists who told me copyright was with the publisher. After that I wrote to the English publisher, but didn't get a reply. Maybe @Ran can clarify it?

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Sure.. Though Robb is still the Lord of Winterfell until his death in ASOS, so ASOS shouldn't say "scattered", imo.

 

Should "Winterfell burned" be stated in the infobox?

Sure, there's room for improvement; I just threw it together as a sample.

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18 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Sure, there's room for improvement; I just threw it together as a sample.

Well, I think the idea is a good one! :) 

 

On a slightly unrelated note, regarding the region template boxes.. You stated earlier that adding two of those boxes to one template doesn't work, but have you attempted creating a template out of the AGOT-template and the ADWD-template? That way, the template might be tricked into keeping one box open, and one box closed.

I don't know if it will work, but I thought it might be worth the suggestion.

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

@Ran,

What happened to the wiki's database? All changes since september last year have been deleted!

Please tell me there's a way to reverse that..

Just so the reply is tracked here too (and people don't panic): when we did the resource shuffle last night, Ran had misremembered when wiki duplication had happened, and told me the wiki data didn't need to be migrated.

Suffice to say, that was Not Quite True. ;)  

There was an old version of the wiki from testing back in September there, sure, but not the real wiki data.  The wiki data has now been migrated, and while changes done this morning (that went into the oops-testing-copy wiki) did indeed get lost, all the rest of the data is back.

There may be one more wiki downtime in the next week or two (an hour or so) if we decide to bump the RAM in the server that's now handling just PHP, but otherwise things should be good.

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22 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

On a slightly unrelated note, regarding the region template boxes.. You stated earlier that adding two of those boxes to one template doesn't work, but have you attempted creating a template out of the AGOT-template and the ADWD-template? That way, the template might be tricked into keeping one box open, and one box closed.

I don't know if it will work, but I thought it might be worth the suggestion.

Do you know of any templates that are already like that? I've only edited templates based on previously-created formats.

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