The ASOIAF wiki thread

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, chris1994 said:

Hey, so I thought I had posted this before but it must have somehow not gotten through, maybe my Internet was down, idk.

Anyway I've said before that the inconsistency concerning the description of House coats of arms really annoys me. So sometimes there is only a normal English description (House Stark) and sometimes there is only the formal blazon (House Cerwyn). Mostly, however, both are used, first the English description and then, in Italic and in parentheses, the blazon, so I would propose doing that everywhere.

Moreover, some descriptions or blazons are just incorrect (House Bolton) ore use, in my opinion, too much heraldic vocabulary in what's supposed to be the normal English description (House Locke).

Also, sometimes the blazon seems to have formed around an interpretation of the artist who designed the House crest used in the wiki, even though such a clear description was never given in any canon or semi-canon material and should therefore not be included in the blazon. E.g. the description of the bullmoose of House Hornwood includes the adjective "trippant" which would be the correct word for the description of the position of the moose (in this case just walking) if this description were ever mentioned anywhere. Sure, the artist had to make a choice when designing the Hornwood banner, and decided that the moose should be walking, but that doesn't mean it's canon. Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but I think these things are important. I mean, if an artist to give the House Stark direwolf brown eyes, that would be alright since the eye colour is never explicitly stated and doesn't change the fact that it's still a grey direwolf. But you couldn't start saying in the blazon that the wolf is "orbed brunâtre" retroactively because it isn't necessarily.

Anyway, I would therefore strongly propose going for more consistency here and I could absolutely provide the blazons where missing. Here just a few examples of some Northern Houses coats of arms and how I would correct their descriptions.

 

• House Stark: A running grey direwolf, on an ice-white field (Argent, a direwolf courant cendrée)
• House Bolton: A red flayed man on pink scattered with red drops (Rose goutty de sang, a flayed man gules) 
• House Cerwyn: A black battle-axe on silver (Argent, a battle-axe sable) [I've removed the adjective "pale-ways" here, because I'm fairly certain that this is never mentioned either.]
• House Dustin: Two rusted longaxes with black shafts crossed, a black crown between their points, on yellow (Or, two longaxes in saltire tenné shafted sable, between their points a crown sable) [I'm not quite satisfied using the tincture "tenné". That would be a colour somewhere between orange and brown but the original description only uses "rusted" which could be any shade of red, brown or orange. I could include rusted in the blazon but since that's not a tincture, you would still have to include some tincture if you conform to traditional heraldry. GRRM doesn't however, so maybe using just rusted IS enough, idk. So that's a bit tricky... I'm open to other suggestions.]
• House Hornwood: A brown bullmoose with black antlers on orange [taken from The Citadel] (Tenné, a bullmoose brunâtre attired sable)
• House Locke: Two bronze keys crossed on an white pale on purple (Purpure, on a pale argent two keys in saltire bronze) [There is only one precedent for using "bronze" as a heraldic tincture in real life, and in medieval times this would not have existed, the only metals used in thoses times being gold (or) and silver (argent). However, since GRRM breaks with traditional heraldry anyway, I don't see why we can't include it here. I really don't want to describe it as orange (tenné) or brown (brunâtre) since it clearly isn't.]
• House Manderly: A white merman with dark green hair, beard and tail, carrying a black trident, over a blue-green field (Aquamarine, a merman argent crined, bearded and queued vert, carrying a trident sable)
• House Poole: A blue plate on white, with a grey tressure (Argent, a hurt within a tressure cendrée)
• House Reed: A black lizard-lion on grey-green (Vert, a lizard-lion sable)
• House Umber: A roaring giant, brown-haired and wearing a skin, with broken silver chains, on flame-red (Gules, a giant roaring brunâtre habited with a skin wearing chains broken argent)

 

So like I said, these are just a few examples. I would really like to know if I am wasting my time with this stuff or if it is actually appreciated. If it is, I will comb through every House and correct the blazons where necessary but I just wanted to give you guys some examples and see what you think of this. Am I nitpicking or do you agree that we should go for more consistency?

This is certainly appreciated! I think more consistency is always a good idea for these kind of things!

[chris1994]

So should I go on doing this? I would edit it myself in the wiki, but as you know, it's currently impossible to join the editors. I don't want to litter this thread with endless blazons either, so should I just send a list of those that should be corrected to one of the editors?

[The Wondering Wolf]

Just start a new thread, similar to the calculation thread of Rhaenys. You'll get a pm from me regarding the German wiki soon.

[Nittanian]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

This is certainly appreciated! I think more consistency is always a good idea for these kind of things!

I agree! Also, I noticed that the sunburst in House Karstark's sigil currently includes a face, but I don't recall this from the books.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

19 hours ago, chris1994 said:

So should I go on doing this? I would edit it myself in the wiki, but as you know, it's currently impossible to join the editors. I don't want to litter this thread with endless blazons either, so should I just send a list of those that should be corrected to one of the editors?

If you fear it will clutter this thread, a new thread might be an idea, as The Wondering Wolf suggested. Whichever one you choose, I would recommend posting it in a thread, and not a pm. Posting the info publicy allows for more editors to see it, and thus for more people to help edit the info in, whenever they have the time.

[chris1994]

15 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I agree! Also, I noticed that the sunburst in House Karstark's sigil currently includes a face, but I don't recall this from the books.

Yeah I guess this is one of those situations where the blazon and the artistic interpretation of the blazon have affected each other retroactively which really shouldn't happen. You see, on the one hand you have the description of the sigils in the books which are done using everyday English. Now you've got to try to transform this description into a blazon, including everything that was described in the books and possibly, when necessary, adding information that was implied in the original description but needs to be added in a formal blazon. On the other hand, because GRRM breaks with traditional heraldry, you sometimes can't blazon a sigil exactly like you would want to. Now the one who tried to put the Karstark sigil into a blazon used the "sun-in-splendour" for the sunburst which is a good decision since that is definitely the closest you can come to a sunburst using traditional blazoning. But now the sun-in-splendour is traditionally depicted with a face (but not always) so an artist reading the blazon without knowing the sigil in advance would naturally paint it with a face. I agree that it should be removed but you see the problems that can occur here.

[Nittanian]

The wiki currently has the Rogares at "Rogare family". Should they instead be at "House X"? TWOIAF indicates that Westerosi consider Valyrian nobles to be houses.

Quote

"At its apex Valyria was the greatest city in the known world, the center of civilization. Within its shining walls, twoscore rival houses vied for power and glory in court and council, rising and falling in an endless, subtle, oftsavage struggle for dominance."

Quote

After his years as a hostage in Lys following the Dance, Viserys returned to King's Landing with a beautiful Lyseni bride, Larra Rogare, the daughter of a wealthy and influential noble house.

Braavos has the influential Prestayns (Captains Luco and Moredo) and Antaryons (current Sealord Ferrego).

Quote

The Long Canal took Brusco's boat beneath the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth and the tall square towers of the Prestayns and Antaryons before passing under the immense grey arches of the sweetwater river to the district known as Silty Town, where the buildings were smaller and less grand.

Quote

Braavos is a city renowned for its architecture: the sprawling Sealord's Palace, with its magnificent menagerie of queer beasts and birds from all around the world; the imposing Palace of Justice; the huge Temple of the Moonsingers; the aqueduct that the Braavosi named the sweetwater river, carrying muchneeded freshwater from the mainland of Essos (for the water in the canals is brackish, muddy, and too foul to drink because of the refuse thrown into it by the city's inhabitants); the towers of the keyholders and noble families;

The Saans are currently at "Saan family". Are they considered noble?

Quote

SAMARRO SAAN, THE LAST VALYRIAN
A notorious pirate from a notorious family of pirates from Lys, with the blood of Valyria in his veins.

Quote

In the days before his knighthood, he had often bought cargoes from Salladhor Saan. The Lyseni was a smuggler himself, as well as a trader, a banker, a notorious pirate, and the self-styled Prince of the Narrow Sea. When a pirate grows rich enough, they make him a prince. It had been Davos who had made the journey to Lys to recruit the old rogue to Lord Stannis's cause.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

The wiki currently has the Rogares at "Rogare family". Should they instead be at "House X"? TWOIAF indicates that Westerosi consider Valyrian nobles to be houses.

I think that would be fine. Either, in this specific case, House Rogare, or House of Rogare (as in the cities of Slaver's Bay).

[The Tattered Knight]

Hello all, I'm completely new to this and have found out that I need to make three posts to become an editor. All I really wanted to do is identify a very small mistake on this page of the wiki: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Chapter_48

There is a footnote on the last paragraph of the synopsis that very helpfully points out the last-known locations of the people mentioned in Brienne's lie to Jaime. Sansa and Sandor are rightfully identified, but Brienne is said to have been seen last in AFFC chapter 37. It should read AFFC chapter 42 (or Brienne VIII). In chapter 37 she gets injured by Biter, in chapter 42 she meets Lady Stoneheart, then in ADWD chapter 48 she shows up at Pennytree to meet Jaime. Ordinarily I wouldn't make a fuss, but the show is catching up to Brienne's story and the BWB is also making an appearance. So I found myself looking over the chapters to refresh my memory of how the book treats the story line.

I hope this is the right place and I'm not mistaken about this correction. All the best.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

52 minutes ago, The Tattered Knight said:

Hello all, I'm completely new to this and have found out that I need to make three posts to become an editor. All I really wanted to do is identify a very small mistake on this page of the wiki: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Chapter_48

There is a footnote on the last paragraph of the synopsis that very helpfully points out the last-known locations of the people mentioned in Brienne's lie to Jaime. Sansa and Sandor are rightfully identified, but Brienne is said to have been seen last in AFFC chapter 37. It should read AFFC chapter 42 (or Brienne VIII). In chapter 37 she gets injured by Biter, in chapter 42 she meets Lady Stoneheart, then in ADWD chapter 48 she shows up at Pennytree to meet Jaime. Ordinarily I wouldn't make a fuss, but the show is catching up to Brienne's story and the BWB is also making an appearance. So I found myself looking over the chapters to refresh my memory of how the book treats the story line.

I hope this is the right place and I'm not mistaken about this correction. All the best.

Corrected!  Thank you very much!

Edited June 9, 2016 by Rhaenys_Targaryen

[RumHam]

33 minutes ago, The Tattered Knight said:

Hello all, I'm completely new to this and have found out that I need to make three posts to become an editor.

Unfortunately the software that linked forum accounts to wiki accounts did not get updated when the forum software did. So even once you make your three posts you won't be able to log in as a wiki editor. There's currently no simple way for them to allow new wiki editors without just opening it up to anybody, which they won't do because they fear vandalism. So until a solution is found you and a bunch of other people are stuck waiting. It sucks. 

[Ran]

This reminds me that tomorrow we are going to experiment with a new bridge that may allow new editors in! There'll be some down time when we implement it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

47 minutes ago, aRanycsapat said:

This reminds me that tomorrow we are going to experiment with a new bridge that may allow new editors in! There'll be some down time when we implement it.

Any insights in what time that down time will be, and how long it will last?

[Ran]

Not strictly sure yet, as it depends on a couple of things. First down time will be for a forum upgrade, though, and that'll be around 11 or 12 CET. Second down time to implement the bridge may be later in the evening, like 8PM or something, to make sure Sparks is around to assist in case we run into technical problems as the bridge is fairly complicated to implement.

[chris1994]

On 9.6.2016 at 10:17 PM, aRanycsapat said:

This reminds me that tomorrow we are going to experiment with a new bridge that may allow new editors in! There'll be some down time when we implement it.

So using this bridge, when it is completely implemented and funtional, will you be able to once again register on the wiki using a forum account?

[Ran]

More or less. It will automatically create and associate an account.

 

Tested it yesterday and ran into some problems that we will have to work out before a new test, however.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Going to continue this here, as it was not the focus of the other thread  

55 minutes ago, roi_de_fer said:

Sure!

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sansa_Stark

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Eddard_Stark

In both cases, the hatnote is written out longhand, e.g. 

:''For the historical figure, see [[Sansa Stark (daughter of Rickon)]].''

Instead, you should use a hatnote template.  For Sansa, this would look like

{{For | historical figure | Sansa Stark (daughter of Rickon)}}

This would produce the exact same text as is currently displayed.  You can also make hatnotes with custom text as follows:

{{Hatnote|blah blah blah}}

Here is an example of a page with a correctly formatted hatnote:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bran_Stark

{{See homonyms | Brandon Stark (disambiguation)}}

Thanks for taking an interest in this!

I have been thinking about this as well, and I was wondering whether the kind of hatnotes like found on the Eddard and Sansa page would be better than the one found on, for example, the Bran page you linked. For example, instead of having the Bran page read "For other articles sharing the same title, please see this disambiguation page.", wouldn't it be better to have it read "This article is about the son of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn Tully. For other characters with the same name, see this disambiguation page." ?

 

If we want to purely use templates for hatnotes, they need to be rather flexible, as not every hatnote needs to state the same thing (the one for this page, for example, links to multiple other pages, for example). Additionally, the hatnote for Ned also needs to state what redirects to that page.

Would there be a way to use a template for this, you think?

 

Also, hatnotes are supposed to start after an indent, right? The template used on the Bran Stark page doesn't use that, currently. So that would be something that could perhaps be changed.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Rhaenys_Targaryen

[roi_de_fer]

5 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If we want to purely use templates for hatnotes, they need to be rather flexible, as not every hatnote needs to state the same thing (the one for this page, for example, links to multiple other pages, for example). Additionally, the hatnote for Ned also needs to state what redirects to that page.

 

Would there be a way to use a template for this?

Yes!  You can make custom hatnotes like this:

{{Hatnote | whatever text/links you want}}

The only difference is that now the hatnote text won't be treated as part of the body of the article (which is annoying for people like me trying to pull text from the article).  

8 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

For example, instead of having the Bran page read "For other articles sharing the same title, please see this disambiguation page.", wouldn't it be better to have it read "This article is about the son of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn Tully. For other characters with the same name, see this disambiguation page." ?

Personally I agree with you, but it's a matter of preference.  At the end of the day both are probably fine.

I'd be happy to help update some hatnones, but it would require being allowed to register as a wiki editor. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just now, roi_de_fer said:

Yes!  You can make custom hatnotes like this:

{{Hatnote | whatever text/links you want}}

The only difference is that now the hatnote text won't be treated as part of the body of the article (which is annoying for people like me trying to pull text from the article).  

What do you mean?

 

Just now, roi_de_fer said:

Personally I agree with you, but it's a matter of preference.  At the end of the day both are probably fine.

I'd be happy to help update some hatnones, but it would require being allowed to register as a wiki editor. 

I could try to see if our template can be adjusted? I think losing the image on the end (since it is rather unnecessary), create an indent and losnig the line that the template creates underneath itself is already a good improvement

[roi_de_fer]

46 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

What do you mean?

 

It doesn't affect the way the page is displayed, but when web developers like me try to pull text from the wiki the first sentence will be "This is an article about ___; for ___, see ___."  I'm trying to have my site pull short character descriptions from AWOIAF, similar to the way Google shows previews from Wikipedia in the right sidebar when you search.   Having those hatnotes appear as part of the description is not ideal.

Edited June 11, 2016 by roi_de_fer
Sorry, I misunderstood your question.