The ASOIAF wiki thread

[The Wondering Wolf]

You are right, I've just remembered them being referred to as wards.

[Lord Varys]

In regards to more followers of the old gods I think there are two deciding factors to consider:

1. There being multiple knights in a family. One knight allow could be a Jorah-like exception.

2. There being direct indications that they follow the Seven via them employing septons and/or septons as well as them having septs at their castles.

However, what could be done if George wanted to do it would be to have some houses of Andal origin to have converted to the old gods due to a crucial First Men marriage back in the past. Mostly this went the other way, but if the Andals on the Iron Islands basically turned native, this could also have happened in the other Seven Kingdoms on rare occasions.

This way even some very Andalish sounding folks could turn out to be followers of the old gods. The best place for that kind of thing happening would be in the regions were the Andals didn't do much conquering, i.e. the Reach and the Westerlands. You could have early Andals arriving there ending up converting to the old gods when they were married to the daughters or sisters of powerful Gardener or Lannister kings. Eventually things changed so the kings and their lords took on the faith of the invaders, but in the early days it could have gone the other way in those regions, and their descendants could have stuck with their new religion.

This kind of thing hit with the Boltons - who basically have a very typical English Andalish name. If George were to ever tell us the origin story of the house then the founder could very easily be an early or proto-Andal - very much like Lann the Clever - who wasn't originally of Westeros but landed on the Weeping Water with a fleet of raiders and decided to stay.

[The Dragon Demands]

@Ran

Sorry to raise this issue again but it may be important in HotD:  specifically who was the head of House Stark who attended the Great Council of 101 AC at Harrenhal?

I know there's a discrepancy in the earlier print versions. Currently we have it listed as Ellard Stark.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Great_Council_of_101_AC#Known_attendees

[The Wondering Wolf]

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

@Ran

Sorry to raise this issue again but it may be important in HotD:  specifically who was the head of House Stark who attended the Great Council of 101 AC at Harrenhal?

I know there's a discrepancy in the earlier print versions. Currently we have it listed as Ellard Stark.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Great_Council_of_101_AC#Known_attendees

It was Ellard Stark. There has never been any discrepancy regarding that. The thing you are referring to is about the Lord Stark who conceded the New Gift (Ellard in the old version, Alaric in the corrected one).

Edited August 16, 2021 by The Wondering Wolf

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@The Wondering Wolf @Ran

Do we know if the part about Ellard's brother sending letters to the Citadel has been completely scratched off or we should consider it to be moved to "Alaric's brother" ?

Quote

Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night's Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid. It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline—for the Night's Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall.

-TWOIAF, The North: The Lords of Winterfell

 

[The Dragon Demands]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It was Ellard Stark. There has never been any discrepancy regarding that. The thing you are referring to is about the Lord Stark who conceded the New Gift (Ellard in the old version, Alaric in the corrected one).

I don't understand...

Ellard conceded the New Gift....resented it enough to vote for Laenor in 101....but at some LATER date he was succeeded by his brother Alaric, who even years later was still trying to reverse the decision?

(reads quote) ah, it seems his brother wasn't lord at the time.

Edited August 16, 2021 by The Dragon Demands

[The Wondering Wolf]

7 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Do we know if the part about Ellard's brother sending letters to the Citadel has been completely scratched off or we should consider it to be moved to "Alaric's brother" ?

Ellard's brother was changed to Alaric's sons. 

7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I don't understand...

Ellard conceded the New Gift....resented it enough to vote for Laenor in 101....but at some LATER date he was succeeded by his brother Alaric, who even years later was still trying to reverse the decision?

(reads quote) ah, it seems his brother wasn't lord at the time.

Alaric agreed to hand over the New Gift in 58 AC. According to Gyldayn, he hesitated a bit, but then was absolutely fine with it and everything was great. However Yandel cites the letters Alaric's sons sent to the Citadel to prevent it from happening and mentions that subsequent Starks were bitter at Jaehaerys. He speculates this may have been one reason why Ellard supported Laenor in 101 (I think it's likely Ellard was a grandchild of Alaric).

[The Dragon Demands]

Ah, it was in 58.

[zionius]

All changes in the kindle version are recorded in the errata https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Errata_of_The_World_of_Ice_%26_Fire

The kindle version hasn't updated to the 9th print, and I don't have one at hand, so some changes in the 9th print are still unknown. The only ones we know now are Gyldayn retcon.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Maybe we can use this source to state that Duncan was already Lord Commander in 239 AC.

[Nittanian]

I don't see the thread for app corrections in the TWOIAF subforum anymore, but the actor for Mord is listed in his app entry as Ciaran Birmingham instead of Ciaran Bermingham.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Since we once had discussed if Prentys Tully had been the Lord Tully who fought against Prince Aegon in 43 AC, I just came across a sentence that heavily implies he wasn't. When Rogar wants to depose Jaehaerys, it says that Qarl Corbray had seen Dragons fight in the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. This indicates Prentys wasn't there.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Tytos Brax is taken captive in the Whispering Wood and becomes lord after his father Andros dies at Riverrun. The ASOS appendix says Tytos is held prisoner at the Twins. But Lord Brax is in KL after the Blackwater battle. This could be reconciled if we assume it was Flement and Sansa got it wrong. But even in this case the app would be wrong because the Hornvale entry states Tytos was in KL. These uncertainties should be depicted on the wiki.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

But Lord Brax is in KL after the Blackwater battle

Lord Brax is also among the lords Jaime says are escorting Tywin's remains to Casterly Rock in AFfC.

Tytos Brax must have been ransomed, and the ASoS appendix entry is incorrect, a holdover from ACoK that slipped through the gaps. Perhaps he was one of the people the Freys traded in return for some of their own prisoners at Harrenhal? Arya did not necessarily witness every prisoner exchange. 

That's probably the best solution. I'll make a note about having the ASoS appendix updated.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Ran

[The Wondering Wolf]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Lord Brax is also among the lords Jaime says are escorting Tywin's remains to Casterly Rock in AFfC.

At this point any prisoners the riverlords had would have got free again, anyway, as we can see with Banefort and Jast.

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

Tytos Brax must have been ransomed, and the ASoS appendix entry is incorrect, a holdover from ACoK that slipped through the gaps. Perhaps he was one of the people the Freys traded in return for some of their own prisoners at Harrenhal? Arya did not necessarily witness every prisoner exchange. 

That's probably the best solution. I'll make a note about having the ASoS appendix updated.

Sounds good. I think Tytos isn't even mentioned in the ACOK appendix, so getting him in there and stating he is held prisoner at the Twins would be a useful addition, too. Otherwise the information would disappear entirely.

[The Wondering Wolf]

The wiki places Corlos and the founding of House Casterly in the Age of Heroes, but the Worldbook states it was the Age of Dawn.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The wiki places Corlos and the founding of House Casterly in the Age of Heroes, but the Worldbook states it was the Age of Dawn.

The confusion probably came from the term Golden age of the First Men which is mentioned earlier in the text but you are right they are founded in the Dawn Age.

I have already changed it on the wiki

Edited August 27, 2021 by direpupy

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:15 PM, direpupy said:

The confusion probably came from the term Golden age of the First Men which is mentioned earlier in the text but you are right they are founded in the Dawn Age.

I have already changed it on the wiki

It seems to me the other houses and their legendary founders mentioned in this context have to be placed in the Aege of Dawn, as well.

[Nittanian]

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It seems to me the other houses and their legendary founders mentioned in this context have to be placed in the Aege of Dawn, as well.

What makes it difficult is that some of the ancient history is contradictory.

Luwin and Yandel agree that the Pact separated the Dawn Age from the Age of Heroes.

Quote

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes." (AGOT Bran VII)

With the Pact, the Dawn Age of the world drew to a close, and the Age of Heroes followed. (TWOIAF Ancient History: The Coming of the First Men)

Yandel writes that House Stark have been in Winterfell since the Dawn Age, and mentions the Long Night.

Quote

The greatest castle of the North is Winterfell, the seat of the Starks since the Dawn Age. Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter. (TWOIAF The North: Winterfell)

According to Jon, however, Bran the Builder was from the Age of Heroes.

Quote

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—" (ACOK Jon VI)

Yandel also writes that Bran the Builder is connected with legends from the Age of Heroes.

Quote

Names such as Brandon the Builder, Garth Greenhand, Lann the Clever, and Durran Godsgrief are names to conjure with, but it is likely that their legends hold less truth than fancy. Elsewhere, I shall endeavor to sift what grain can be found from the chaff, but for now it is enough to acknowledge the tales. (TWOIAF Ancient History: The Age of Heroes)

Yandel's chapter for the Long Night (after which Bran supposedly built Winterfell and the Wall) is placed after the chapter for the Age of Heroes.

So, should the section on Winterfell instead have: "The greatest castle of the North is Winterfell, the seat of the Starks since the Dawn Age Age of Heroes"?

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

What makes it difficult is that some of the ancient history is contradictory.

Luwin and Yandel agree that the Pact separated the Dawn Age from the Age of Heroes.

Yandel writes that House Stark have been in Winterfell since the Dawn Age, and mentions the Long Night.

According to Jon, however, Bran the Builder was from the Age of Heroes.

Yandel also writes that Bran the Builder is connected with legends from the Age of Heroes.

Yandel's chapter for the Long Night (after which Bran supposedly built Winterfell and the Wall) is placed after the chapter for the Age of Heroes.

So, should the section on Winterfell instead have: "The greatest castle of the North is Winterfell, the seat of the Starks since the Dawn Age Age of Heroes"?

This is why i have not changed it for any other house yet, only the case for house Casterly is clear enough for this. They where founded in the Dawn Age and replaced by House Lannister in the Age of Heroes. For other houses it is less clear because of the conflicting sources.