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There is a paragraph that mentions a dozen houses, that were founded roughly at the same time, and then it says that the Casterlys were the most powerful house. In my opinion there is a clear connection. But even if you think it's not clear, you have to remove the Age of Heroes links in the wiki articles of the houses and the founders.

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@Ran Is there any particular reason why the children of Antario Jast and Lanna Lannister were not included in the Worldbook's family tree at all (not even as 'issue')?

We had relatively little to do with the creation of the trees. Off hand, the only thing I can say is that sometimes decisions were made on the basis of space limitations. George's Stark and Targaryen trees also had him noting he was not going to create details about off-shoots from marriages of daughters to men of other houses, and their off-spring in turn, etc. While we know Jast has sons, I don't think George felt like inventing names for them, so that may be why the graphics designer left them off.

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@Ran Do we even know if Jast’s sons are from his marriage with Lanna ? They are only mentioned once in the text (ACOK Sansa III) and not in the appendices. These sons could be bastards or from a previous marriage for all we know.

Timeline-wise, it’s possible for Lanna to have sons old enough to go to war with their father but not the likeliest situation. In order to go to war, these sons would be at the bear minimum 8 year old squires in 299 AC, so born no later than ~291 AC. With Lanna’s grandfather, Damon Lannister, being born in 244 or 245 AC that would mean Damon became a great-grandfather (Damon > Damion > Lanna > Lanna’s sons) at ~47 years at the maximum. That seems pretty early, no ?

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35 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Ran Do we even know if Jast’s sons are from his marriage with Lanna ? They are only mentioned once in the text (ACOK Sansa III) and not in the appendices. These sons could be bastards or from a previous marriage for all we know.

That seems pretty early, no ?

An issue I noted while the tree was in production, so the absence of the sons may also be related to that. I don't recall if GRRM made any remark on it.

Entirely possible they are bastards or from a previous marriage, yes, given the time line, but ultimately we just don't know.

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15 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

There is a paragraph that mentions a dozen houses, that were founded roughly at the same time, and then it says that the Casterlys were the most powerful house. In my opinion there is a clear connection. But even if you think it's not clear, you have to remove the Age of Heroes links in the wiki articles of the houses and the founders.

I would not remove them, at most make it clear that there is conflicting evidence about if they where founded in the Dawn Age or The Age of Heroes.

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1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I would not remove them, at most make it clear that there is conflicting evidence about if they where founded in the Dawn Age or The Age of Heroes.

I read it again, and I think it's quite clear that Yandel places the founding of these houses in the Dawn Age. He talks about the first houses that were established in the westerlands and calls this time Dawn Age. Conflicting sources on the founding of Winterfell shouldn't affect this particular case.

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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I read it again, and I think it's quite clear that Yandel places the founding of these houses in the Dawn Age. He talks about the first houses that were established in the westerlands and calls this time Dawn Age. Conflicting sources on the founding of Winterfell shouldn't affect this particular case.

So i looked up the piece of text and there is a split between the first men houses of the westerlands.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

Many and more great houses trace their roots back to this golden age of the First Men. Amongst these are the Hawthornes, the Footes, the Brooms, and the Plumms. On Fair Isle, the longships of the Farmans helped defend the western coast against ironborn reavers. The Greenfields raised a vast timber castle called the Bower (now simply Greenfield), built entirely of weirwood. The Reynes of Castamere made a rich system of mines, caves, and tunnels as their own subterranean seat, whilst the Westerlings built the Crag above the waves. Other houses sprang from the loins of legendary heroes, of whom tales are told to this very day: the Crakehalls from Crake the Boarkiller, the Baneforts from the Hooded Man, the Yews from the Blind Bowman Alan o' the Oak, the Morelands from Pate the Plowman.

The ones that sprang from the loins of legendary heroes would be from The Age of Heroes. The whole bit about the golden age of the first men only applies to the houses mentioned right after it, and then the question becomes what is the golden age of the first men.

The mention of the Dawn Age later in the text only applies to house casterly.:

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands
Though never kings, the Casterlys became the richest lords in all of Westeros and the greatest power in the westerlands, and remained so for hundreds of years. By then the Dawn Age had given way to the Age of Heroes.

So while i agree that the houses in the first half of the text are most likely from the Dawn Age the ones from after that are most likely from The Age of Heroes, but because the only mention of the Dawn Age is in relation to House Casterly we can only be certain about them.

Edited by direpupy
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3 minutes ago, direpupy said:

So i looked up the piece of text and there is a split between the first men houses of the westerlands.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

Many and more great houses trace their roots back to this golden age of the First Men. Amongst these are the Hawthornes, the Footes, the Brooms, and the Plumms. On Fair Isle, the longships of the Farmans helped defend the western coast against ironborn reavers. The Greenfields raised a vast timber castle called the Bower (now simply Greenfield), built entirely of weirwood. The Reynes of Castamere made a rich system of mines, caves, and tunnels as their own subterranean seat, whilst the Westerlings built the Crag above the waves. Other houses sprang from the loins of legendary heroes, of whom tales are told to this very day: the Crakehalls from Crake the Boarkiller, the Baneforts from the Hooded Man, the Yews from the Blind Bowman Alan o' the Oak, the Morelands from Pate the Plowman.

The ones that sprang from the loins of legendary heroes would be from The Age of Heroes.

I would read it differently. 'Other houses' not in opposition to the houses mentioned first, but in addition to them (it seems some house have a legendary founder figure, others have not). It's one paragraph and after that we learn about the Casterlys who were founded in the Dawn Age for sure. In my opinion it's clear, but if you disagree, just place the Hawthornes, Footes, Brooms, Plumms, Farmans, Greenfields, Reynes, and Westerlings in the Dawn Age and state for the others that it's not entirely clear.

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5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I would read it differently. 'Other houses' not in opposition to the houses mentioned first, but in addition to them (it seems some house have a legendary founder figure, others have not). It's one paragraph and after that we learn about the Casterlys who were founded in the Dawn Age for sure. In my opinion it's clear, but if you disagree, just place the Hawthornes, Footes, Brooms, Plumms, Farmans, Greenfields, Reynes, and Westerlings in the Dawn Age and state for the others that it's not entirely clear.

I edited my post probably while you where typing this response, its not clear for any of them because they only clear mention of the Dawn Age is in relation to house Casterly.

See my previeus post for the edit.

Edited by direpupy
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Just now, direpupy said:

I edited my post probably while you where typing this response, its not clear for any of them because they only clear mention of the Dawn Age is in relation to house Casterly.

I strongly disagree with that. Yandel says men came to the westerlands in the Dawn Age and then elaborates on their encounters with the first races. And in this very context of the First Men settling in the westerlands he mentions the houses that were founded at that time. And after that he mentions the Casterlys who were founded in the Dawn Age. And only then comes the first mention of the Age of Heroes (there is a clear thematic cut, emphasized by the hundreds of years the Casterlys ruled). 

Assuming that events which are mentioned between two Dawn Age events could have taken place in the Age of Heroes, is rather far-fetched in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I strongly disagree with that. Yandel says men came to the westerlands in the Dawn Age and then elaborates on their encounters with the first races. And in this very context of the First Men settling in the westerlands he mentions the houses that were founded at that time. And after that he mentions the Casterlys who were founded in the Dawn Age. And only then comes the first mention of the Age of Heroes (there is a clear thematic cut, emphasized by the hundreds of years the Casterlys ruled). 

Assuming that events which are mentioned between two Dawn Age events could have taken place in the Age of Heroes, is rather far-fetched in my opinion.

Exept that George does not do clean cuts like that in his ancient history and one of his most beloved tricks in writing is the unreliable narrator, this is most likely why he uses the term Golden Age of the First Men and not Dawn Age or Age of Heroes. A Golden age is an age in which people thrive and the First Men thrived in both the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes so it could be either one, but also and this in my opinion is the most likely option both together, encompassing both ages at the same time.

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Heroes as such could and did exist in the Dawn Age. If the implication is that houses were founded in the Dawn Age then this is the implication. The mentioning of heroes alone doesn't necessarily allow us to jump ahead into the Age of Heroes.

Caster and Corlos are proof that legendary heroes and founders also walked around in the Dawn Age. Not to mention Garth Greenhand and the Grey King.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Heroes as such could and did exist in the Dawn Age. If the implication is that houses were founded in the Dawn Age then this is the implication. The mentioning of heroes alone doesn't necessarily allow us to jump ahead into the Age of Heroes.

Caster and Corlos are proof that legendary heroes and founders also walked around in the Dawn Age. Not to mention Garth Greenhand and the Grey King.

I don't dispute that, i dispute that these houses are al placed in the Dawn Age because they only mention of the Dawn Age is in relation to house Casterly directly. For the other houses it is left vague like most of the ancient history.

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1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Exept that George does not do clean cuts like that in his ancient history and one of his most beloved tricks in writing is the unreliable narrator, this is most likely why he uses the term Golden Age of the First Men and not Dawn Age or Age of Heroes. A Golden age is an age in which people thrive and the First Men thrived in both the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes so it could be either one, but also and this in my opinion is the most likely option both together, encompassing both ages at the same time.

All I can say is that in this chapter there is a clear cut in my opinion. We have Dawn Age (First Men arriving and settling down), unstated age (founding of all these house), Dawn Age (founding of the Casterlys), and then with a thematic cut (the Casterlys ruling for a hundred of years) Age of Heroes. Just because GRRM is not clear about ages elsewhere we shouldn't disregard distinctions when he makes them.

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1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

All I can say is that in this chapter there is a clear cut in my opinion. We have Dawn Age (First Men arriving and settling down), unstated age (founding of all these house), Dawn Age (founding of the Casterlys), and then with a thematic cut (the Casterlys ruling for a hundred of years) Age of Heroes. Just because GRRM is not clear about ages elsewhere we shouldn't disregard distinctions when he makes them.

They only clear cut there for me is the cut between general history and the history of one house (house Casterly) So house Casterly being from the Dawn Age does not mean the houses in the general history spoken of before that are also from the Dawn Age.

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1 hour ago, direpupy said:

They only clear cut there for me is the cut between general history and the history of one house (house Casterly) So house Casterly being from the Dawn Age does not mean the houses in the general history spoken of before that are also from the Dawn Age.

Alright, maybe we should wait for other editors weighing in then.

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5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yandel says men came to the westerlands in the Dawn Age and then elaborates on their encounters with the first races. And in this very context of the First Men settling in the westerlands he mentions the houses that were founded at that time. And after that he mentions the Casterlys who were founded in the Dawn Age. And only then comes the first mention of the Age of Heroes (there is a clear thematic cut, emphasized by the hundreds of years the Casterlys ruled). 

That's my interpretation of the text as well. 

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7 hours ago, direpupy said:

I don't dispute that, i dispute that these houses are al placed in the Dawn Age because they only mention of the Dawn Age is in relation to house Casterly directly. For the other houses it is left vague like most of the ancient history.

You don't really an explicit confirmation there if the cohesion and continuity of the text implies that there is a chronological structure there. If the narrator doesn't explicitly jump around in the timeline - and he doesn't do that at that point - the default assumption would be that the text is structured chronologically. And then the point where we can talk about the Age of Heroes only starts when that era is mentioned, and not before.

I'd not go very far with something like that when writing a wiki article, though. Far too much speculation going on to actually faithfully presenting facts.

For what it's worth, this is actually a rather interesting piece of information in the grand scale of things. It implies that the feudal culture of the Hundred Kingdoms actually developed partially in the Dawn Age, especially in the Reach and the Westerlands and, one assumes, also in other southern regions like Dorne and the Stormlands. Those would have been very primitive 'feudal societies', to be sure, but the foundations of the later noble houses were, apparently, made in that era for the Casterlys, the Gardeners and others, and not so much in the Age of Heroes.

This also fits very well with the mysterious origins of Oldtown which also seem to go back all the way to the Dawn Age.

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