Jump to content

The ASOIAF wiki thread


Onion Knight
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • 2 weeks later...
3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm a bit confused on the arms of House Bridges. The Citadel says "A black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above bendy blue and white" and depicts it like this. So how did this end up as "a black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above three blue pallets on white", as the wiki claims?

As far as i can tell the wiki is wrong in this case, because the source it sites is the citadel and that says it bendy so whoever added the arms made a mistake.

I looked at the history of the page and apparently it never had the correct arms on it, every version that's been on the page had the pallets instead of the bendy waves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm a bit confused on the arms of House Bridges. The Citadel says "A black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above bendy blue and white" and depicts it like this. So how did this end up as "a black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above three blue pallets on white", as the wiki claims?

Seems like the wiki has always had this one wrong: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=House_Bridges&oldid=20946

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2022 at 2:27 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Citadel says Robb Stark's personal arms show a grey direwolf's head on white and depict it like this, while the wiki has this version. Which one would be more likely according to the blazoning? 

@Abjiklam

The blazon doesn't mention an attitude, so I think real world heraldry would default to dexter. But this isn't real world heraldry so who knows :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm baffled by the entry in the wiki. As it happens, George did briefly consider the blue pallets when initially it was supposed to be blue and green, but then as I recall we settled on the present blue and white because he didn't like how that looked either. But I admit he was not especially happy with the "final" version either, so I can't swear he hasn't changed his mind since.

As to Robb's wolfhead, we showed it to GRRM back when we made it and he had no comment on it, so we think it was fine by him. But it could well be that he imagined it the wiki fashion.

 

Edited by Ran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm baffled by the entry in the wiki. As it happens, George did briefly consider the blue pallets when initially it was supposed to be blue and green, but then as I recall we settled on the present blue and white because he didn't like how that looked either. But I admit he was not especially happy with the "final" version either, so I can't swear he hasn't changed his mind since.

The page for house House Bridges was created in November 2010. At this point the Citadel listed the arms with three pallets. It still said so in November 2019, but it has been changed in the meantime. I guess there was a reason why you've changed it at some point, maybe you noticed it was outdated or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The page for house House Bridges was created in November 2010. At this point the Citadel listed the arms with three pallets. It still said so in November 2019, but it has been changed in the meantime. I guess there was a reason why you've changed it at some point, maybe you noticed it was outdated or something.

That is ... odd. I need to look at our archives to figure out what happened.  Maybe my recollection of the order of things is wrong.

 

Edited by Ran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All right, I've scrambled the order of events in part because somehow we reverted to a pre-2006 era version of that particular heraldry. I'm baffled as to how it could have happened, but in any case back in November 2019 we did a big project with the back end, trying to simplify some of the structure of data on the website. I have a vague recollection that an error happened in the process and we restored some of the information from elsewhere. I can only think that I might have simply seen that image and filled in the description without remembering that it was out of date.

So, the Wiki version is correct. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2022 at 7:37 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm a bit confused on the arms of House Bridges. The Citadel says "A black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above bendy blue and white" and depicts it like this. So how did this end up as "a black stone bridge with three arches upon a golden chief above three blue pallets on white", as the wiki claims?

I made the list of revised sigils in Mar 2019, half a year before this change. Therefore it's not captured.

I just checked again, this is the only changed blazon after the 2019 update.

Edited by zionius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great that we could clarify that one. I still have a question regarding the pallets. Since the gaps between the pallets themselves are different from the gaps between the pallets and the edge of the shield, I think it would be called Drillingspfahl in German (something like 'triplet pallet'). So could the arms of House Bridge also be blazoned as 'pallets' only, although there are these different gaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

The wiki mentions the conspiracy during the Lysene Spring on several occasions, but I would like to get some opinions on the actual period of the Lysene Spring. 

The Worldbook says: 

In the end, it was Larra Rogare and her wealthy, ambitious family who helped break the power of the regents and, almost certainly, that of Lord Peake. It was an inadvertent role they played, however, caught up as they were in the Lysene Spring. This was a time when the Rogare Bank waxed greater than the Iron Bank, and so fell prey to the plots to control the king; they were blamed for many more acts than they were actually guilty of. Lord Rowan, then the Hand and one of the last regents, was accused of being complicit in their crimes and was tortured for information. Ser Marston Waters, now somehow Hand of the King in his place (Munkun, the only regent at this time besides Rowan, is reticent to discuss this in the True Telling), dispatched men to seize Lady Larra after having arrested her brothers. But the king and his brother refused to give her up, and were besieged in Maegor’s Holdfast by Waters and his supporters for eighteen days. The conspiracy eventually unraveled as Ser Marston—perhaps recalling his duty—attempted to fulfill his king’s command to arrest those who had falsely implicated the Rogares and Lord Rowan. Waters himself was killed by his own sworn brother, Ser Mervyn Flowers, when he attempted to arrest him.

This seems to imply the conspiracy took place during the Lysene Spring, but I'm hesitant to use this as confirmation since we know this paragraph is just a heavily compressed version of the F&B chapter. So I would rather look to Gyldayn's words:

Even less loved than Larra of Lys were the three brothers who had come with her to King’s Landing. Moredo commanded his sister’s guards, whilst Lotho set about establishing a branch of the Rogare Bank atop Visenya’s Hill. Roggerio, the youngest, opened an opulent Lysene pillow house called the Mermaid beside the River Gate, [...] In Lys, ancient houses fell and many a highborn magister was cast down and ruined, whilst others rose up to seize the reins of power. Chief amongst these was Lysandro Rogare and his brother Drazenko, architect of the Dornish alliance. Drazenko’s ties to Sunspear and Lysandro’s to the Iron Throne made the Rogares the princes of Lys in all but name. By the end of 134 AC, some feared they might soon rule Westeros as well. [...] Munkun refers to this period as the Rogare Ascendency, but that term was only ever used at Oldtown, amongst the maesters and archmaesters of the Citadel. The people who lived through it called it the Lysene Spring…for spring was indeed a part of it. Early in 135 AC, the Conclave sent forth its white ravens from Oldtown to herald the end of one of the longest and cruelest winters that the Seven Kingdoms had ever known.

The Rogare Ascendency started in 134 AC, and I guess the Lysene Spring is meant to refer to the same events, although it hadn't been spring when it began. While the term may be a bit imprecise, I think we can deduce the Lysene Spring began late in 134 AC. But when did it end? The last mention of it is this one:

Even as the fighting in the Vale of Arryn continued, the promise of the Lysene Spring suffered another grievous blow hundreds of leagues to the south, with the near-simultaneous demise of Lysandro the Magnificent in Lys and his brother Drazenko in Sunspear.

Since the decline of the Rogares started immediately thereafter, does this mean the death of Lysandro and Drazenko marked the end of the Rogare Ascendency (and if so, does it also mark the end of the Lysene Spring)? Maybe one could argue the actual downfall was some time later when the Rogare Bank went bankrupt. But even then the conspiracy didn't really take place during the Lysene Spring, but after it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I said before, I don't know why it would be necessary to create a page for any of those characters from the GoT lineage prop, but if people want it, so it be. But I would like to ask to get the house categories cleaned of them. For example, the House Royce category is barely helpful when it's flooded with characters even the series wouldn't consider canon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

 

1 - Due to how much the Stepstones will feature prominently in House of the Dragon Season 1 (according to casting reports which mention "Bloodstone guard" by name, spy photos, etc.) I have been making major updates to the "Stepstones" page. Everyone please check those out if they need refinement.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stepstones

@Ran

2 - ....I don't know much about the story in the Blood of Dragons MUSH, but I know the Stepstones appear prominently in several storylines (there was that one not too far back detailing a specific overland military campaign on Bloodstone, etc.)....I don't now how "canon" any of that is, and I'm unfamiliar with it, so I didn't include any of it. I don't know if you want to add any of that stuff into the article in preparation for House of the Dragon in August.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Stepstones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

@Ran

Your grace, I've been crunching the numbers for battles in the Dance of the Dragons, and they simply don't match up, particularly for the Battle by the Lakeshore: 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_by_the_Lakeshore

Green armies are consistently described as actually being about one fourth "regular" soldiers (knights/archers/men-at-arms) then "thrice as many" sellswords, free-riders, rabble, feudal levies, etc. This holds true for both Aegon II at Rook's Rest and for the Hightower host.

The Lannister army, when it first enters the riverlands, is said to be "one thousand knights, and seven times as many archers and men-at-arms" - so again a core of regular soldiers, here numbering about 8,000.  This raises 2 questions:

  • Did the Lannister army ALSO have three times as many mercenaries & levies, like the other green armies did? So more like 32,000 in all? (this may also explain why the stormlands' total army was listed as a ridiculously small 6,000 - that only counts "regular" solders when the real number is closer to 24,000)
  • ....is this only something the GREENS did, because they were the wealthier faction to begin with (controlling Oldtown and Lannisport), not to mention that they absconded with the old royal treasury?  So while we may assume Green armies were four times bigger, this may not hold true for the Blacks

Then specifically for the Battle by the Lakeshore, while the Lannisters must have taken some losses on campaign by that point in earliest battles....even assuming they only had 8,000 men as stated, the numbers are simply impossible:

"By nightfall two thousand men were dead, amongst them many notables,including Lord Frey, Lord Lefford," etc

Including TWO THIRDS of the Winter Wolves, numbering 2,000 at first.  Two thirds of 2K is about 1,300 men!

So by a strict reading of the text...the COMBINED losses of the riverlords and westerman was a mere 700? For the largest land battle of the war? And the Lannister army of 8,000 had been whittled down to somewhat less than 700 before that?

The numbers here just don't add up.

I SUSPECT it's just poorly phrased, that we should take it as "2,000 BLACKS died" while the ENTIRE Lannister host of 8,000 got wiped out (or perhaps 6 to 7 thousand, as they'd been taking losses).  And that's not even getting into that the text sometimes forgets to mention "actually the Hightower army was three times that size because before we didn't mention all the sellswords and levies".  

This is very confusing, it may even necessitate a letter to the big guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...