The ASOIAF wiki thread

[The Wondering Wolf]

I think we now reached a point with the article creation for non-book characters where it should definitely stop. Do we really want to have pages for all the MUSH characters? I see the point of creating pages for show-only things (although I don't get the countless pages for the characters from the lineage book when even the show runners wouldn't consider them show-canon), but @Ran himself had said that there shouldn't be articles for the Game of Thrones Telltale characters. So I would like to discuss three points:

1. MUSH content. Should be removed in my opinion. Just a bunch of names with no meaning to anyone except the players.

2. Telltale content. I have no opinion there.

3. Characters from the GoT lineage book. Should be removed in my opinion. Just a bunch of names who aren't even considered show-canon.

 

 

[Ran]

Agreed, MUSH character stuff needs to go. We are not going to confirm which characters or events are from GRRM in general. The wiki is for fully canon material, i.e. written, co-written, or otherwise directly overseen by George where he confirms that he has overseen things. He did not give approvals for individual props (like that lineage book from GoT) and we know explicitly he did not have any direct involvement in the Telltale game.

@Vaith Please remove the entries, or help others do it, when you've a chance.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Ran

[Vaith]

47 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think we now reached a point with the article creation for non-book characters where it should definitely stop. Do we really want to have pages for all the MUSH characters? I see the point of creating pages for show-only things (although I don't get the countless pages for the characters from the lineage book when even the show runners wouldn't consider them show-canon), but @Ran himself had said that there shouldn't be articles for the Game of Thrones Telltale characters. So I would like to discuss three points:

1. MUSH content. Should be removed in my opinion. Just a bunch of names with no meaning to anyone except the players.

2. Telltale content. I have no opinion there.

3. Characters from the GoT lineage book. Should be removed in my opinion. Just a bunch of names who aren't even considered show-canon.

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Ran said:

Agreed, MUSH character stuff needs to go. We are not going to confirm which characters or events are from GRRM in general. The wiki is for fully canon material, i.e. written, co-written, or otherwise directly overseen by George where he confirms that he has overseen things. He did not give approvals for individual props (like that lineage book from GoT) and we know explicitly he did not have any direct involvement in the Telltale game.

@Vaith Please remove the entries, or help others do it, when you've a chance.

I have removed the pages for the MUSH.

Was not sure about the Telltale articles, but I am fine with them going if that's the decision. I saw that the wiki had articles on some but not all, so thought it would be in line with things to add more. If all Telltale material is to go, then https://ttgot.fandom.com/wiki/Telltale's_Game_Of_Thrones_Wiki could be linked on the main page about the Telltale game, and/or on the "Derived works" article.

If there is a rule of some kind of including characters only directly cast or mentioned, that's also fine I think.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Characters_from_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Roleplaying was also added recently to cover an adapted work, so that may also have to be removed depending on what people think.

[Ran]

I think a page for a game -- including BoD -- would be fine, and if people want to list some of the details or notable characters from those games on that page, that would make sense. Same with like the various RPGs and sourcebooks. But things get very muddied if you end up having a bunch of characters who are purely game inventions showing up in searches right next to actual canon characters.

So the SIFRP category should go, IMO, and if people want to briefly note some of the characters from the game's modules/adventures on that page, they could do that.

[Vaith]

We have a https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blood_of_Dragons page and a https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Roleplaying page, so they could be shifted over to that. I will try to delete as many pages in that category then, but I think there are also a few House/location pages made also associated with the game, but I think they can be found thanks to the template.

[Alyx Rivers]

I have some questions about personal arms.

For one, Benfrey Frey has a personal arms listed on both his character page and the List of personal arms page, but I can't find a source for that.

Then there's House Slynt in general. The house page says "their blazon is a bloody spear, gold on a field of night-black", as per GoT, Sansa V, but the Citadel says it's "a bloody spear, gold on black, with a border of checkered gold and black". As far as I can tell, the only mention of the checkers in the books is in 1) GoT, Sansa V, where Janos Slynt wears a cloak that is "checked black-and-gold" and 2) CoK, Sansa I, where Morros Slynt wears a "checkered black-and-gold cloak", though his shield is only said to have a bloody spear, with no further description. However, on the List of personal arms page, Morros Slynt is listed as having "A bloody spear, gold on black, with a border of checkered gold and black" as his personal sigil, though it does not turn up on his character page.

And last, Tom Flowers, Robb Rivers, Cedrik Storm, Rolland Storm and Aurane Waters all have a personal arms on their character pages that are their fathers' house colors reversed, but for which I can't find a source and which aren't on the List of personal arms page either.

 

Does anyone have an opinion or any knowledge for any of this?

Edited June 17, 2022 by Alyx Rivers

[zionius]

15 hours ago, Alyx Rivers said:

I have some questions about personal arms.

Quote

 

“Benfrey, go fetch your sister. Be quick about it, Lord Tully’s come all the way from Riverrun.” A young knight in a quartered surcoat bowed and took his leave

 

The rest seems to have no source and probably should be removed.

[Ran]

George's description of the Slynt arms includes the checked border, as we depict at the Citadel. 

The personal arms of those bastards are assumptions, and not terrible ones, but that said they aren't attested and we know from bastards like Walder Rivers that they might add a bend or other mark to further difference from the family arms above and beyond reversing the color. So, I agree, those should be removed.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Ran

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Alyx Rivers Blackshield/Bastard of Uplands should also be on that list. I don't think we have a source for him adopting the reversed Mullendore sigil.

[Alyx Rivers]

Ok, so that's Benfrey Frey confirmed to have personal arms. Thanks, @zionius, apparently I didn't look properly.

 

7 hours ago, Ran said:

George's description of the Slynt arms includes the checked border, as we depict at the Citadel.

That would mean, we'd have to change the sigil on the page for their house and where ever else it's used to the one that's currently called 'House Slynt (Morros)' and Morros would have to be removed from the List of personal arms page. My question is now, do we rename the sigil file from 'House  Slynt (Morros)' to 'House Slynt'? Because otherwise it might get confusing..

 

@Thomaerys Velaryon You're right, he was actually on the list I made for myself, but he apparently got lost somewhere when I wrote the post. Do you think, the reversed Mullendore sigil should be replaced by another Night's Watch shield? Because that's what is currently being used to represent the black shield, but it seems a bit misleading when in all other places where it's being used, it actually means the person is a member of the Night's Watch.

Otherwise, I can just delete all the sigils for all the bastards on the list, including the black one.

[Ran]

Morros is the head of House Slynt, so yeah, just rename it to House Slynt, and Morros has no personal arms that we know of.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Ran

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

3 hours ago, Alyx Rivers said:

Otherwise, I can just delete all the sigils for all the bastards on the list, including the black one.

I think it would be a waste to disregard those sigils entirely but we have to stick to the canon information. So we have to make a change. I propose a compromise: we delete all the unsourced sigils from the articles and replace them with a note explaining and linking to the image of their probable heraldry. It's kinda like what we did to the Targaryens before the Conquest and why we don't display the Targaryen heraldry for them anymore.

For the case of Blackshield, I agree using the Night’s Watch heraldry is confusing. I’m guessing whoever made the edit at the time made it to be coherent with the other mystery knights heraldry (Duncan the Tall/Gallows Knight and the Knight of the Laughing Tree). I like how @Abjiklam added the wood texture to some heraldry (Bennis of the Brown Shield, House Sparr, House Uffering, and House Woodwright). I wonder if it is possible to do the same but in black for Blackshield in a way to be at the same time accurate and different enough from the Night's Watch heraldry. I don't know if Blackshield just used some oaken shield and paint it black or if he used natural black wood found in the Ice and Fire world (ironwood, ebony, nightwood or black-barked tree) but it would be cool to see those details somehow.

[Alyx Rivers]

That seems like a good idea. The text could maybe be something like this:

"Tom Flowers does not have known personal arms, but it is possible that he, like other highborn bastards, used his father's house sigil with reversed colors."

And then put a link in the text, maybe at 'reversed colors'.

There is one problem with the sigil Aurane Waters currently has though. It still uses the wrong sort of sea horse.

 

2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I wonder if it is possible to do the same but in black for Blackshield in a way to be at the same time accurate and different enough from the Night's Watch heraldry. I don't know if Blackshield just used some oaken shield and paint it black or if he used natural black wood found in the Ice and Fire world (ironwood, ebony, nightwood or black-barked tree) but it would be cool to see those details somehow.

I'd considered that as well. The only mention of Blackshield is the entry for Barristan Selmy in the White Book, which doesn't elaborate on what sort of shield he used. But something like the shield of Bennis the Brown, just in black, would definitely look pretty good. I'm unfortunately not very good at image editing, so it would have to be done by some one else.

 

Another thing, I'm uncertain about: There are now two personal sigils (that is, svg files) which have turned out to not exist. The one for Amory Lorch and the one for Morros Slynt. Should we just delete those or leave them as they are?

[Abjiklam]

On 6/18/2022 at 6:26 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I wonder if it is possible to do the same but in black for Blackshield in a way to be at the same time accurate and different enough from the Night's Watch heraldry.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 9:20 PM, Alyx Rivers said:

But something like the shield of Bennis the Brown, just in black, would definitely look pretty good.

I uploaded a new shield here

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

Quote

Her children are alive, at least, and that is thanks to me. Asha had left them at Ten Towers in the care of her aunts. Lady Sybelle's infant daughter was still on the breast, and she had judged the girl too delicate to expose to the rigors of another stormy crossing. Asha shoved the letter into the maester's hands.

A Dance with Dragons, The Waynard Bride

Since when Asha Greyjoy has aunts ?

As far as we know, Lady Alannys (Asha's mother) has two siblings: Gwynesse and Rodrik. By his own admission (in AFFC, The Kraken's Daughter) Rodrik is a widower, so an aunt by marriage is not possible. That leave us with only one aunt, Gwynesse.

Either it's a small mistake or Alannys, Gwynesse and Rodrik have at least one other sister.

Thoughts ?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

I currently deleting information coming from the Green Ronin Campaign guide from the Wiki as we've established that it should not be counted as a semi-canon source. I'm facing a dilemma concerning Marq Grafton.

Information from the canon:

• Marq Grafton is slain by Robert Baratheon at Gulltown during Robert's Rebellion. (ADWD, Davos I)
• An unnamed Lord Grafton stayed loyal to Aerys II and opposed the rebels. (TWOIAF, The Fall of the Dragons: Robert's Rebellion)
• Gerold Grafton is the current Lord of Gulltown. (AFFC, Appendix)

Information from the RPG guide:

• Marq Grafton, instead named "Randyll Grafton", was the Lord of Gulltown during Robert's Rebellion.
• Gerold Grafton is Marq's son and became Lord of Gulltown after his father was killed by Robert Baratheon.

 

I think it's safe to say that the father-son connection between Marq and Gerold should be deleted. But I'm not so sure about Marq's statuts as Lord of Gulltown or not. While the books does not specify Marq was the unnamed Lord Grafton from TWOIAF, according to the French wiki GRRM read ADWD Davos I in a convention as a sample chapter years before the publication of ADWD. In this early version of the chapter, Marq was called "Randyll Grafton" (like the RPG guide which was published before ADWD) and was indeed the Lord of Gulltown. I have not been able to verify this information. @Ran @zionius @The Wondering Wolf, does any of you know anything about this early version of the chapter ? Should Marq Grafton still be considered to be the Lord of Gulltown during Robert's Rebellion who stayed loyal to Aerys II ? Or should this information be deleted too ?

Also, the different Westerosi kingdoms articles use the 2005 RPG "A Game of Thrones" Game as a reference for the numbers of military strengh. Is this source accurate ?

Edited June 30, 2022 by Thomaerys Velaryon

[The Wondering Wolf]

23 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I currently deleting information coming from the Green Ronin Campaign guide from the Wiki as we've established that it should not be counted as a semi-canon source.

Seven blessings to you.

24 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I'm facing a dilemma concerning Marq Grafton.

The French wiki states Marq/Randyll was a lord, but the report from the reading that is linked in the notes does not say so. I think it's likely that he was, I see no canon source for it, though. Unless Ran can clarify the matter, I would just mention the possibility that Marq was the lord who stayed loyal to Aerys.

[Ran]

The published ADwD overrides draft ADwD, and if George removed the reference making Marq/Randyll explicitly lord, we should not assume he was lord. So, I agree with WW, at most we can say he was possibly the lord.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Also, the different Westerosi kingdoms articles use the 2005 RPG "A Game of Thrones" Game as a reference for the numbers of military strengh. Is this source accurate ?

I remember something about GRRM stating that the numbers en stats of this RPG where good enough for an RPG, but i also know that in some cases it has already been in conflict with the canon numbers specifically when it comes to Dorne so personally i would not give to much credit to these numbers they seemed to have been designed with play-ability in mind and not canon.

In they interest of honesty this is a statement from around when the RPG came out (2005) so i could be misremembering this.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

Thanks. I've edited Marq's page now.