Thomaerys Velaryon Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 On 10/25/2022 at 1:18 AM, Vaith said: Just popping on here to ask if there's any guidance in particular to keep in mind when adding info from Rise of the Dragon? Wait there is new info in that book ? I might be a little out of the loop here. Wasn't this book simply a condensed version of Fire & Blood but with more art ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 There is very, very, very limited new information, and much of it is visual (most dragon colors are canonical-ish, though sometimes artists may have interpreted some details in a way that makes things unclear). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, Ran said: There is very, very, very limited new information, and much of it is visual (most dragon colors are canonical-ish, though sometimes artists may have interpreted some details in a way that makes things unclear). Ok thank you. Is the information in this book (the text not the art) considered just as canon as Fire & Blood then ? Like for example, the small details I've just saw @Lord Varys mention in this thread ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 12 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said: Ok thank you. Is the information in this book (the text not the art) considered just as canon as Fire & Blood then ? Like for example, the small details I've just saw @Lord Varys mention in this thread ? I'd go with such tiny details which clearly would be clarifications from George as canon, but stuff that clearly goes back to the material being condensed and rephrased wouldn't be canon if it goes against events as presented in FaB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 @Thomaerys Velaryon I'm not sure that Helaena actually died at the 22th day of the fifth month. The temporal connection is only mentioned in the Worldbook (which is quite wrong on the sequence of events in this regard) and @Ran once said that he doesn't think the date for the uprising is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said: @Thomaerys Velaryon I'm not sure that Helaena actually died at the 22th day of the fifth month. The temporal connection is only mentioned in the Worldbook (which is quite wrong on the sequence of events in this regard) and @Ran once said that he doesn't think the date for the uprising is accurate. I wasn't aware there is uncertainty about the dates since there are no contradiction between the different books (TWOIAF, Fire & Blood and The Rise of the Dragon). What are the source that say the events at King's Landing (Helaena's death, riots, storming of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra leaving the city) do not start on the same day as the Battle above the Gods Eye ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 17 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said: I wasn't aware there is uncertainty about the dates since there are no contradiction between the different books (TWOIAF, Fire & Blood and The Rise of the Dragon). What are the source that say the events at King's Landing (Helaena's death, riots, storming of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra leaving the city) do not start on the same day as the Battle above the Gods Eye ? I think it was an issue when F&B had not been published because some information did not make sense then. The problem is my conversation with Elio got lost because of the troubles they had with the site years ago, and I can not really remember the exact reasoning why it seems Helaena's death took place a bit earlier than the battle. I think it is because there is a period of two weeks between the Black Council meeting (Rhaenyra sending the letter to Maidenpool, Corlys's arrest, Maidenpool switching sides immediately) and the battle, but Rhaenyra only disowns the Mootons during the riots. It also seems unlikely to me that the "riotous mob" Corlys's men joined after their lords arrest would have been allowed to stir up trouble so long. The Worldbook says: On the twenty-second day of the fifth moon of the year 130 AC, Aemond One-eye and Daemon Targaryen entered their last battle. On that same day, chaos and death seized King’s Landing. Queen Rhaenyra had imprisoned Lord Corlys for helping his grandson, Ser Addam Velaryon, escape arrest when he was accused of treason. Some of the Sea Snake’s sworn swords joined the riotous mob in Cobbler’s Square, and some scaled the walls to try to free the Sea Snake, only to be hanged when they were caught. Queen Helaena then fell to her death, impaled on the spikes surrounding Maegor’s Holdfast—a suicide some said, and others a murder. And that night, the city burned as the Shepherd’s mob marched on the Dragonpit, attempting to slay all the dragons within. It is not even clear which event the bolded text actually refers to, because it indicates all these events took place at a single day, which is clearly wrong. Corlys's men defected and joined the mob or climbed the walls to get home (not to free Corlys), Woodwright and True tried to free Corlys, but were executed on the morning of day M. I expect there must have been at least a few days between Corlys's arrest and the executions. In the evening of day M Helaena died. In the subsequent night rumours about the manner of her death were circulated in the city. The riots started in the evening of night N and lasted throughout the whole night. Order could be restored partially at day O, but in the evening the Storming of the Dragonpit took place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 @The Wondering Wolf We don't need your conversation with Elio, I think I found a passage in The Rise of the Dragon that clarify things somewhat. Quote After Daemon's death, King's Landing slowly fell deeper into crisis with each passing day. Every new betrayal left Queen Rhaenyra more isolated, and every new rumor of disaster drove still more followers to the Shepherd, who preached in Cobbler's Square. Thanks to Rhaenyra's treatment of Ser Addam and her arrest of Lord Corlys, even those sworn to House Velaryon began to abandon the queen. Two knights attempted to free the Sea Snake, though they were caught and hanged from the walls for their troubles. That same night, Queen Helaena threw herself from a window in Maegor's Holdfast, [...].-The Rise of the Dragon, The Reign of Aegon II: The Death of Dragons There is clearly a built up of at the minimum a few days (if not weeks) between the news of Daemon's death reaching King's Landing and Helaena "committing suicide" and the following riots. Thank you for pointing that out, I was wrong to go with the TWOIAF passage and will delete my edits regarding the erroneous dates later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Regarding names and stuff, I think crucial questions put to George in the wake of the first season of HotD eventually should be - whether Otto Hightower's brother, the Lord of Oldtown as depicted by HotD, is also named Hobert Hightower in the book. - what the hell the name of Otto's wife was. I guess the show could eventually reveal that, but that would just be the show version then unless George confirmed it was also this way in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 GRRM has explained in the past that in order to construct a character in his mind he has to know his/her name first. But he does not always bother to give a name to his historical character. From the different time he was asked, it's clear he has not settled on a name for Doran, Elia, and Oberyn's mother for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abjiklam Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 I've added the chapter numbers for Fire & Blood and The World of Ice and Fire in the {{Ref}} template. We can now write references as {{ref|twoiaf|4|2}} instead of {{ref|twoiaf|The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I}} The chapter and sections numbers for these books are documented here. Nittanian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 @Ran F&B says: Quote Munkun refers to this period as the Rogare Ascendency, [...] Early in 135 AC, the Conclave sent forth its white ravens from Oldtown [...] Spring is ever a season of hope, rebirth, and renewal, and the spring of 135 AC was no different. [...] Across the narrow sea, Lys itself was prospering under the “velvet tyranny” of Lysandro Rogare, who had taken on himself the style of First Magister for Life. And when his brother Drazenko married Princess Aliandra Martell of Dorne, and was named by her Prince Consort and Lord of the Stepstones, the ascendancy of House Rogare reached its apex. [...] During the first quarter of 135 AC, two momentous events were the occasion of great joy throughout the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. To me this implies the wedding of Aliandra and Drazenko was one of the events in early 135 AC. But TROTD says: Quote And that news was the sudden and swift end of House Rogare, who had held such power in both Lys and the Seven Kingdoms. Moredo’s uncle Drazenko - who had wed Princess Aliandra of Dorne the previous year - was said to have choked to death on a fishbone, while Moredo’s father, Lysandro, drowned when his pleasure barge sank. Placing it in 134 AC. Did you get any further confirmation by GRRM or was it your own conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 The page of Viserys's I son Daeron says, he joined Lord Ormund Hightower when Ormund left Oldtown at the beginning of the Dance. But I think the text makes it clear that Daeron stayed behind and only left the city after Ormund had been caught at the Honeywine. It's said that the Arryns of Gulltown had split from their noble kin during the reign of Jaehaerys I, Isembard Arryn is categorised as noble, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) @The Wondering Wolf In AGoT, it's mentioned that Mace Tyrell has brothers, but on the wiki only his sisters are listed. Sheuld we write it off as a "firstbookism"? Edited January 19, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: @The Wondering Wolf In AGoT, it's mentioned that Mace Tyrell has brothers, but on the wiki only his sisters are listed. Sheuld we write it off as a "firstbookism"? Either that or Sansa just got it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 @Ran We had similiar discussions before, but it seems the Force is strong with the ones who love creating articles, so I guess we need another clarification. There are pages for characters now that aren't canon, coming from rewritten chapters. In my opinion it would suffice to redirect these characters' names to 'Behind the scenes' sections on pages they are the most related to (Maenar Blackfyre to Maelys, Corzo zo Merreq to Band of Nine, and so on). Given GRRM's way of writing, the number of pages for such characters would only grow in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 40 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said: @Ran We had similiar discussions before, but it seems the Force is strong with the ones who love creating articles, so I guess we need another clarification. There are pages for characters now that aren't canon, coming from rewritten chapters. In my opinion it would suffice to redirect these characters' names to 'Behind the scenes' sections on pages they are the most related to (Maenar Blackfyre to Maelys, Corzo zo Merreq to Band of Nine, and so on). Given GRRM's way of writing, the number of pages for such characters would only grow in time. 100% agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomaerys Velaryon Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 I'm the one who added the draft information into a "behind the scenes" section for Maelys I Blackfyre. It is a fun piece of trivia. and gives a rare inside view on GRRM's work. Plus since it is in a different and separate section, it does not come into conflict with the canon information. I didn't except someone else to create new characters page for characters that never made it into the canon in the first place. I agree those pages are superfluous and should be deleted. I think the "behind the scenes" sections at the bottom of articles are enough. The Wondering Wolf and Ran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Strikes Back Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) @Thomaerys Velaryon @The Wondering Wolf Are there any BTS sections other than the ones for Maelys and the Band of Nine? I'm a sucker for those kinds of things. Also, for the record, Maenar? Really? What's wrong with plain old Aenar? Seriously, the lack of Aenars, Aerions, and Alysannes in the royal pedigree is mind-boggling. That being said, the best Targaryen name is and forever will be Baegel. Edited January 21, 2023 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) On 1/19/2023 at 3:02 PM, The Wondering Wolf said: Either that or Sansa just got it wrong. I just checked the AGOT appendix from 1997. Mina and Janna are listed as usual, with no mention of Mace’s brothers. So either GRRM changed his mind midway through writing the book or he was intentionally using the unreliable narrator tool through Sansa. Edited January 25, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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