Jump to content

The ASOIAF wiki thread


Onion Knight
 Share

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So either GRRM changed his mind midway through writing the book or he was intentionally using the unreliable narrator tool through Sansa.
 

I don't think the unreliable narrator is plausible here as Sansa is simply hearing Pycelle reading out loud the list of names from a scroll to the court.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

You haven't talked about this with GRRM, perchance? I know it's not the most important detail in the grand scheme of things, but it does stick out.

Nope, never come up before, but I am fairly certain that if asked and it was noted that, hey, did Sansa mean his good-brothers, George would say yes, of course. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of Jon Fossoway, we still don't have a confirmation he is the head of the green Fossoway, right ?

Currently, the heads of both the red and green Fossoway are unknown which is strange for a relatively important Houses.

Note: I know there is no proof for this but in my headcanon, Jon and Jeyne Fossoway are twins grandchildren of Raymun Fossoway from The Hedge Knight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I am wondering that as well. How many pages have a BTS section now?

Most of the BTS sections are simply there to note that the subject of the article is a reference/homage made by GRRM to a friends of his or a writer he likes. For examples,

1) House Peake is named after author Mervyn Peake who wrote the Gormenghast series. GRRM named the lord of this house during the Blackfyre Rebellion "Gormon Peake". He named the seat of the Peakes "Starpike" possibly as a reference to "Steerpike" the main antagonist of this series.

2) House Jordayne has nothing to do with House Dayne but is a reference to the author Robert Jordan. The name of lord of the house, Trebor Jordayne, is simply Robert spelled backwards.

BTS with information from GRRM's early drafts like those on the page of Maelys I Blackfyre and the Band of Nine are extremely rare. Which makes Reddit user gsteff's findings the more special.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Speaking of Jon Fossoway, we still don't have a confirmation he is the head of the green Fossoway, right ?

Currently, the heads of both the red and green Fossoway are unknown which is strange for a relatively important Houses.

I seem to remember discussing this topic some years ago, and someone pointed out that they considered the appendix of AGOT, which includes Jon as one of the Tyrell bannermen, a big hint that he is the head. Same with Tanton because of the ASOS appendix. But no actual confirmation indeed.

 

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Note: I know there is no proof for this but in my headcanon, Jon and Jeyne Fossoway are twins grandchildren of Raymun Fossoway from The Hedge Knight.

Not sure about the twin part, but siblings would make sense for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

someone pointed out that they considered the appendix of AGOT, which includes Jon as one of the Tyrell bannermen, a big hint that he is the head.

Jon being married to Mace's sister does point out to him being an important member of the Fossoway that's for sure.

 

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Same with Tanton because of the ASOS appendix.

Tanton is the only survivor of the Battle of the Blackwater among the three named red Fossoways (Bryan and Edwyd being killed by Lothor Brune). So even if Tanton was not the lord at the start of the series, he has more chance to be now.

 

I would really like to have a complete Fossoway tree to figure out how everyone is related.

  • Leonette Fossoway is married to Garlan Tyrell who is half-Hightower on his mother side.
  • Jeyne Green-Fossoway is married to Gunthor Hightower, uncle of Garlan Tyrell.
  • Jon Green-Fossoway is married to Janna Tyrell, aunt of Garlan Tyrell.

I hope for Cider Hall that Leonette is a Red-Fossoway otherwise they are being upstaged by the new branch of the family. They have Franklyn Flowers who seems like an interesting minor character on their side of the family but he wants to kill them as a revenge for the rape of his mother. I wouldn't call that a win.

There is also Derrick "Bad Apple" Fossoway of the Band of Nine who doesn't sound like a sympathetic character and the one-time-mentioned Ser Arnell, where do they fit in all this ?

 

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Not sure about the twin part, but siblings would make sense for sure.

I know but since there is no information for or against at the moment, I choose to believe it this way until new information comes out. Jon and Jeyne are the most common name in Westeros (even without counting their variants John, Jonos, Jonah, Jonel, Jonelle, Jonothor, Jayne, Jena, Jenny, Jennis) and we already have a set of Jon and Jeyne twins (Alyn Velaryon and Elaena Targaryen's bastards) so why not a other one ? There is also a Jeyne and Jennelyn set of twins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Jon being married to Mace's sister does point out to him being an important member of the Fossoway that's for sure.

Jon is not only listed as brother-in-law to Mace in the AGOT appendix, but also among the bannermen, so he's more than some random knight for sure. I would say it's pretty safe he's the head of the house. 

50 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I hope for Cider Hall that Leonette is a Red-Fossoway otherwise they are being upstaged by the new branch of the family. They have Franklyn Flowers who seems like an interesting minor character on their side of the family but he wants to kill them as a revenge for the rape of his mother. I wouldn't call that a win.

There is also Derrick "Bad Apple" Fossoway of the Band of Nine who doesn't sound like a sympathetic character

While Owen Fossoway was Lord of Cider Hall, we can't even be sure they are still a lordly house. The app states they are just knights. So it seems something happened to them, which might be related to Steffon and Derrick Fossoway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

While Owen Fossoway was Lord of Cider Hall, we can't even be sure they are still a lordly house. The app states they are just knights. So it seems something happened to them, which might be related to Steffon and Derrick Fossoway.

That's true. Houses losing their power and titles is so rare in GRRM's world compared to the real-world Middle Ages that I forget it happens sometimes. We do have the example of the Swyfts who apparently went from Lordly House to Knightly House, so why not the Fossoways too.

We know Aegon V had to deal with several uprisings during his reign (Lyonel Baratheon, Tytos Lannister's misrule in the Westerlands, the Rat, the Hawk, the Pig, ...). Maybe Derrick Fossoway was one of the lords that opposed Aegon's pro-smallfolk laws and rebelled, thus earning his black reputation and his "Bad Apple" moniker. After his rebellion was crushed he choose exile in Essos and years later he joined the Blackfyres to try to conquer Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

@Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

Quote

It was in these green fields that chivalry was born, history tells us; the gallant knights and fair maids of the Reach are celebrated throughout the Seven Kingdoms by the singers, whose own traditions first took root here as well.

-TWOIAF, The Reach

Despite the Vale being conquered by the Andals first and knighthood being an Andal concept, it seems to have been the most popular in the Reach at first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Right now there are two pages for the High Septons during the reign of Aegon I and during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor. In my opinion, these are the same character. The first one is known to be the uncle of Ceryse Hightower, the second one is said to be "kin by marriage to the Hightowers" (Worldbook, Oldtown section). Now it's not impossible that these are two characters and both of them are related to the Hightowers, it's not very likely, though. But even if you consider them to be different characters, there should be a note stating the possibility they aren't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@The Wondering Wolf There is definitely a case to be made that they are in fact one and the same. He would have been 11 years older than his niece Ceryse and have ruled as High Septon from at least 23 AC to his death in 43 AC.

  • 23 AC: Speaks out against the idea of Maegor marrying Rhaena and convinced Aegon I to marry him to his own Hightower niece instead (marriage in 25 AC).
  • 39 AC: Speaks out against Maegor taking Alys Harroway as a second wife. Polygamy aside, he would want Maegor to stay with his niece. This results on Septon Murmison becoming Hand and Maegor being exiled.
  • 41 AC: Speaks out against incest marriage between Aegon the Uncrowned and Rhaena.
  • 42 AC: Declares war against the sinful Maegor.
  • 43 AC: Does not back down against Maegor and gets assassinated.

The only issue I can possibly see in this scenario is that the High Septon from the Conquest died in 11 AC and Aegon I had six High Septons after him for the remainder of his reign. So that would mean that from 11 to at the latest 23 AC there were five different High Septons then Ceryse's uncle. Five consecutive High Septons in a period of maximum 12 years is rather a lot, especially since we don't hear about trouble or sickness in Oldtown at that time.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

The only issue I can possibly see in this scenario is that the High Septon from the Conquest died in 11 AC and Aegon I had six High Septons after him for the remainder of his reign. So that would mean that from 11 to at the latest 23 AC there were five different High Septons then Ceryse's uncle. Five consecutive High Septons in a period of maximum 12 years is rather a lot, especially since we don't hear about trouble or sickness in Oldtown at that time.

This point has came up before, but I guess at least some of them would have been rather old when they were elected. And looking at the list of popes, there were six popes between 523 and 537, so it's even a thing in real world. It would also help to explain why the Most Devout chose a guy in his early thierties: they finally wanted a High Septon who wouldn't die two or three years later.

Edited by The Wondering Wolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

This point has came up before, but I guess at least some of them would have been rather old when they were elected. And looking at the list of popes, there were six popes between 523 and 537, so it's even a thing in real world. It would also help to explain why the Most Devout chose a guy in his early thierties: they finally wanted a High Septon who wouldn't die two or three years later.

We have a similar story with Aegon V's last Grand Maesters: Kaeth, Ellendor, Merion and Pycelle followed each other in a period of two years. It was Aegon who insisted the Conclave chose someone younger (early 40s Pycelle) after the old men kept on dying immediately after their appointment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Thomaerys Velaryon @The Wondering Wolf

My main Issue with this is that he would have been 14 (or even younger if he was chosen before 23 AC) when he became High Septon if they are the same person, and while it is possible that they wanted a younger man this would put him 2 years (or more) before a boy is considered to have become a adult man, which in universe you become at 16. As such his VERY young age would have been noteworthy, thus the lake of mention of this makes it unlikely they are the same person in my opinion.

As in they example of the Grand Maesters during Aegon V reign the would likely have chosen someone in 30's or 40's if they wanted a younger man.

Edited by direpupy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, direpupy said:

My main Issue with this is that he would have been 14 (or even younger if he was chosen before 23 AC) when he became High Septon if they are the same person, and while it is possible that they wanted a younger man this would put him 2 years (or more) before a boy is considered to have become a adult man, which in universe you become at 16. As such his VERY young age would have been noteworthy, thus the lake of mention of this makes it unlikely they are the same person in my opinion.

Well, he wasn't born in 9 AC, but BC. Being 53 years in 43 AC, he would have been in his early thirties at the point of his election (assuming he was chosen around 21 or 22 AC).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...