The ASOIAF wiki thread

[direpupy]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:11 AM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Well, he wasn't born in 9 AC, but BC. Being 53 years in 43 AC, he would have been in his early thirties at the point of his election (assuming he was chosen around 21 or 22 AC).

I misread that as 9 AC, my bad. That does leave the earlier point made about the six high septons so its possible but i do still think it unlikely.

Edited March 8, 2023 by direpupy

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I misread that as 9 AC, my bad. That does leave the earlier point made about the six high septons so its possible but i do still think it unlikely.

When there can be three Grand Maesters within two years, I'm sure there can be five High Septons within twelve years.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

@direpupy

Ser Byron's squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it.

I'm no native speaker, but it seems to me said daughter was the squire's one and not Byron's. Or at least it's ambiguous.

[direpupy]

3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@direpupy

Ser Byron's squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it.

I'm no native speaker, but it seems to me said daughter was the squire's one and not Byron's. Or at least it's ambiguous.

I always read that as the squire writing to Byron's daughter to tell her how her father died, he would have no need to write his own daughter (if he had one) he would presumably be able to tell her in person when he got home. Also a squire of a nobleman of a powerfull house like swann is usually a young man from a other noble family, so apart from possibly being to young to have a child, he would also probably not marry until achieving his knighthood.

But i have to admit that this is all assumption on my part, so i will add the disambiguation to the entry.

[The Wondering Wolf]

7 hours ago, direpupy said:

I always read that as the squire writing to Byron's daughter to tell her how her father died, he would have no need to write his own daughter (if he had one) he would presumably be able to tell her in person when he got home. Also a squire of a nobleman of a powerfull house like swann is usually a young man from a other noble family, so apart from possibly being to young to have a child, he would also probably not marry until achieving his knighthood.

I don't agree with the latest change you made to the note. There's a chance that the squire couldn't get home immediately after the incident, so he wrote to his daughter and also told her about the recent events. In my opinion it's more likely he went back to Stonehelm to tell Lord Swann what happened (if the squire had written to Byron's relatives, one could expect that Lord Swann would have been the recipient instead of a daughter, anyway) and maybe he ended up in Borros's host. There can also be several reasons why the squire was already elder. I don't say it must have been the squire's daughter, but preferring one option over the other isn't the right choice for the wiki when it's ambiguous like that.

[direpupy]

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't agree with the latest change you made to the note. 

That last change was the result of a discussion with @Thomaerys Velaryon over on the wiki talk pages, and i think that it does reflect the most likely option while keeping open the possibility of it being otherwise.

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 There's a chance that the squire couldn't get home immediately after the incident, so he wrote to his daughter and also told her about the recent events. .

Why would he go to the trouble of sending a letter to his daughter just because he could not get home immediately? The story can wait until he gets home surely, and sending a letter is not an easy proposition because somebody would have had to deliver it, not something you just do to tell your daughter your day sucked.

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

In my opinion it's more likely he went back to Stonehelm to tell Lord Swann what happened (if the squire had written to Byron's relatives, one could expect that Lord Swann would have been the recipient instead of a daughter, anyway)

And what makes you think Lord Swann is not out in the field himself? As a matter of fact Borros his host went into the Red Mountains at the beginning of the war, his Marcher Lords like Lord Swann would be the ones to accompany him seeing as the are 1) the closest Lords to the objective. And 2) the ones who would know the lay of the land. As such a letter to Stonehelm would be to the closest relative that is most likely to be there at the time, this would be Byron's daughter.

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 There can also be several reasons why the squire was already elder.

Yes there can, but are they likely? This is the son of a Lord's squire it would be prestigeus to squire for one such, so the change that the squire was not the son of an other noble of high birth is not very high, and that means that he would likely be under 18.

14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I don't say it must have been the squire's daughter, but preferring one option over the other isn't the right choice for the wiki when it's ambiguous like that.

As i said above i think the note reflects the most likely option while keeping open the possibility of being wrong. But if you are so against it what would be your suggestion?

[The Wondering Wolf]

40 minutes ago, direpupy said:

But if you are so against it what would be your suggestion?

Just what it said before your last change.

[direpupy]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:26 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Just what it said before your last change.

I think the change is justified, so if you have no adcional arguments to the ones you already gave and which i answered i see no reason to change it. I still believe this is the most likely option with the note making clear there is a option for it to be different. 

The only thing looking at the entry and note is that the entry should perhaps have the word potential in brackets in it to draw attention to the note, so i will add that.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

I think the change is justified, so if you have no adcional arguments to the ones you already gave and which i answered i see no reason to change it. I still believe this is the most likely option with the note making clear there is a option for it to be different. 

I'll leave it up to you how to handle it, I would just like to remind you that ignoring objections because you consider something likely is not in the spirit of a wiki community. I gave you some reasons which I consider weighty enough to make the case ambiguous and not as clear as you present it. But in the end it's not important enough for me to have lengthy discussions about Byron's potential daughter, so do as you like.

[Ran]

I find the note to be a bit odd because it's very clearly taking sides on the question of ambiguity in a way that doesn't feel neutral.

That said, I too think it likeliest that the intention was that he wrote to Ser Byron's daughter. But I can't rule out that the squire was perhaps writing to his own daughter, maybe years after the fact, recalling to her how the knight died. Nothing says when this letter was written, either way, so I don't think we can use the supposed age of the squire at the writing of the letter to tell us anything.

I've made an edit to make it more neutral.

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'll leave it up to you how to handle it, I would just like to remind you that ignoring objections because you consider something likely is not in the spirit of a wiki community. I gave you some reasons which I consider weighty enough to make the case ambiguous and not as clear as you present it. But in the end it's not important enough for me to have lengthy discussions about Byron's potential daughter, so do as you like.

And i ansewered those reasons with additional arguments which you did not respond to, i am not against changing the note i just did not feel your arguments where compeling, and i still lacked a reason for the squire to write about the incident to a daughter of his. This last being solved by Ran in the posts below this one.

As for your accusation about the spirit of a wiki community i reject your notion, discussing changes which is what i thought we where doing is very much in the spirit of a wiki community and i was certainly not ignoring your objections as my providing additional argumenst against your objections proves.

Edited March 20, 2023 by direpupy

[direpupy]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

I find the note to be a bit odd because it's very clearly taking sides on the question of ambiguity in a way that doesn't feel neutral.

That said, I too think it likeliest that the intention was that he wrote to Ser Byron's daughter. But I can't rule out that the squire was perhaps writing to his own daughter, maybe years after the fact, recalling to her how the knight died. Nothing says when this letter was written, either way, so I don't think we can use the supposed age of the squire at the writing of the letter to tell us anything.

I've made an edit to make it more neutral.

That is a very good argument you make there and one i had not thought off. I still don't see any reason as to why the squire would write about this to his own daughter so i still think it more likely its Byron's daughter, and was trying to reflect the most likely option in the note. However thinking about all the arguments for and against that would have to go into it to explain it properly, the whole thing is starting to become more of a theories page thing then a note so i understand your change.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

I still don't see any reason as to why the squire would write about this to his own daughter

Why did Coryanne Wylde dictate her life story in her final years? Why did Mushroom dictate his life story?

Basically, there's precedent for people writing accounts of events that happened to them long after, and without more information to me there's not any strong reason to judge. We just note the information we have, which includes the possibility that Byron had a daughter.

[direpupy]

49 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why did Coryanne Wylde dictate her life story in her final years? Why did Mushroom dictate his life story?

Basically, there's precedent for people writing accounts of events that happened to them long after, and without more information to me there's not any strong reason to judge. We just note the information we have, which includes the possibility that Byron had a daughter.

Your the first one among three people i talked to about this who could give me a reason for the squire to write to a daughter of his, thank you for that i appreciate this  

Edited March 20, 2023 by direpupy

[Oneiros Drakontos]

Since "his master" means "the squire's master", I think "his daughter" means "the squire's daughter".

 

Sorry for the intrusion, I have to report a mistake in Alicent's page.

In the paragraph "Early life" it's said:

Quote

Already early in the reign of Viserys, Ser Otto and Prince Daemon Targaryen were at odds with each other, and the court fool Mushroom has suggested that the quarrel between the two men began when Daemon deflowered Alicent. The truths of these tales have never been uncovered.

The reported source for that is Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession.

However, in F&B there are no references about a tryst involving Daemon; instead there's a refererence about Jaehaerys I:

Quote

A few even cast doubt on Lady Alicent’s virtue, suggesting she had welcomed King Viserys into her bed even before Queen Aemma’s death. (These calumnies were never proved, though Mushroom repeats them in his Testimony and goes so far as to claim that reading was not the only service Lady Alicent performed for the Old King in his bedchamber.)

The reference about Daemon can be found in The Rogue Prince, and can be considered outdated after F&B publishing:

Quote

A few cast doubt on Lady Alicent’s virtue, suggesting she had given her maidenhead to Prince Daemon and later welcomed King Viserys into her bed as well, even before Queen Aemma’s death.

My advice is to replace the speculation about Daemon in Alicent's page with the rumor about Jaehaerys I.

[oligneisti]

Quote

Luthor was succeeded by Mace as Lord of Highgarden,^[71] as Mace held the title by the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281 AC,^[72] Luthor could not have died any later than 281 AC.

Is this accurate? It cites ASOS: Bran II but Meera only mentions "the rose lord". Am I missing something?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

1 hour ago, oligneisti said:

Is this accurate? It cites ASOS: Bran II but Meera only mentions "the rose lord". Am I missing something?

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_were_the_different_people_in_Meeras_story/

[oligneisti]

2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_were_the_different_people_in_Meeras_story/

Is the FAQ the source? Is there a canonical source that says that "the rose lord" is Mace rather than Luthor?

[Abjiklam]

The responsive styling I added a few weeks ago for infoboxes and images in the wiki seems to finally be live. You may need to refresh to see the changes.

On mobile, infoboxes should look similar to Wikipedia's mobile website and images should never take more than the available screen width.

Let me know if something doesn't look right.

[direpupy]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:30 AM, Abjiklam said:

The responsive styling I added a few weeks ago for infoboxes and images in the wiki seems to finally be live. You may need to refresh to see the changes.

On mobile, infoboxes should look similar to Wikipedia's mobile website and images should never take more than the available screen width.

Let me know if something doesn't look right.

I'm not sure what you where going for, so i don't know which one is correct. But on the house pages of house Manderly and Dayne the infobox is now much bigger while on the page of house Lannister its stil the old size.

I have not looked at other house pages yet, and as i said i don't know what you where going for but this is what stood out for me.