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I'm not seeing the contradiction. Not least because the first quote is discussing the situation at the Doom, when the Old Blood were likely pretty exclusively tigers and so led Volantis into conquest and war. You have to pair this up with the rest of the talk of the ruinous cost of the wars, its ultimate failure, and the rise of the elephants, who would have made inroads among the Old Blood in the wake of the setback.

Ahhhh...I forgot that just because merchants might not be able to RUN for triarch, doesn't prevent an Old Blood triarch from courting the merchant vote.  

That politicians might not actually be "from" the constituency they court.

…..well, more simply, my question is:  as a rule...are Elephant CANDIDATES, such as Trianna, always Old Blood?  Would wealthy merchants NOT of the Old Blood of Valyria be forbidden from running even as Elephants?

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Only the Old Blood can be triarchs. The triarchs may be either tigers or elephants.

Just look at Vogarro:

 

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An elephant, seven times a triarch, very rich, a power on the docks.

Whilst other men built the ships and sailed them, he built piers and storehouses, brokered cargoes, changed money, insured shipowners against the hazards of the sea. He dealt in slaves as well.

He had extensive mercantile interests while still accounted one of the noblemen of the Old Blood.

Edited by Ran

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I think House Fossoway of Cider Hall should be regarded as a lordly house, since we met Lord Owen Fossoway in TPatQ.

Before 2013, the only proof that Red Apple Fossoway is also landed knight is that Ser Steffon Fossoway is promised to be raised to "Lord Fossoway". But that "Lord" could just be a honorable title, as Varys'. 

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@Ran, any input on this?

 

On 9/14/2018 at 11:16 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

@Ran,

Question for the errata of TWOIAF.

There are several quotes placing the destruction of the Rhoynar/flight of Nymeria and her people and their arrival in Dorne/ the Rhoynish Wars "a thousand years ago". 

"That was the Rhoynar name," said Haldon Halfmaester, "but for a thousand years this has been the Palace of Sorrow." (ADWD Tyrion 5)

This series of conflicts reached a bloody climax a thousand years ago in the Second Spice War, when three Valyrian dragonlords joined with their kin and cousins in Volantis to overwhelm, sack, and destroy Sarhoy, the great Rhoynar port city upon the Summer Sea. (TWOIAF: Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

Separate as they have been—and then a thousand years ago joined with the Rhoynar—the Dornish have their own proud, fraught history and their own ways. (TWOIAF: Dorne: Queer Customs of the South)

However, in TWOIAF, at the end of the chapter describing the arrival of the Rhoynar in Dorne, and the start of the rule of House Martell over Dorne, we get this:

House Martell has guided Dorne for seven hundred years, raising its great towers at Sunspear, seeing the shadow city and the Planky Town rise, and defeating all those who threatened its dominion. (TWOIAF, Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar)

 

The inconsistency seems to be 300 years here. Although the phrase "a thousand years ago" is often used to generalize, the proclamation that a series of wars that lasted ~2,5 centuries climaxed a thousand years ago appears quite precise. This would, however, mean that the phrase in "The Coming of the Rhoynar" is incorrect.

My question is, what is correct? Does this phrase mistakenly state 700 years while it was supposed to be 1000? Is the use of "a thousand years" in this case too a generlization? (meaning that the Rhoynar city-states fell 700 years ago, only ~300 years before the Doom?).

Or, does this phrase reflect the status of the rule of House Martell as it was shortly before Aegon's Landing and subsequent Conquest? The reason I wonder about this is that this phrase is used to end the section of how House Martell came to rule and is followed by a section ("Queer Customs of the South") discussing the Rhoynish and Dornish customs, not a particular part of Dornish history, with the next section ("Dorne Against the Dragons") starts off with Aegon's Conquest, 300 years before the presence. And those 300 years added to the 700 years from the earlier section fit neatly with the "thousand years" given earlier.

So is "a thousand years" in this context a general phrasing, or does it point to a specific time period of actually ~1000 years?

 

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The Lord of Jordayne is Lord Trebor Jordayne. His heir is his daughter, Myria.

In AFFC and in ADWD, a "Lady Jordayne" is mentioned;

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My bannermen have been delaying him, to purchase me some time. The Wyls kept him hunting and hawking for eight days on the Boneway, and Lord Yronwood feasted him for a fortnight when he emerged from the mountains. At present he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne has arranged games in his honor. When he reaches Ghost Hill he will find Lady Toland intent on outdoing her. (AFFC, The Princess in the Tower)

and

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The white knight did drink, as was only courteous. His companions likewise. So did the Princess Arianne, Lady Jordayne, the Lord of Godsgrace, the Knight of Lemonwood, the Lady of Ghost Hill … even Ellaria Sand, Prince Oberyn's beloved paramour, who had been with him in King's Landing when he died. (ADWD, The Watcher)

 

Is this "Lady Jordayne" Lord Trebor's wife (so-far not mentioned by name nor listed in an appendix), or Trebor's daughter, Myria?

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Is this "Lady Jordayne" Lord Trebor's wife (so-far not mentioned by name nor listed in an appendix), or Trebor's daughter, Myria?

I think it's similar to the case of Shyra Errol, whose death during ACOK caused the head of Haystack Hall changed to a lord.

Lord Trebor appears in the appendices of AFFC&ADWD, so he's alive by the end of 299 AC, and dead by the time of The Princess in the Tower.

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I think we need some consistent agenda for the coat of arms on the wiki. There are a lot of cases where the weapons on the house page look different from the ones on character pages. I guess user @Abjiklam put a lot of work into the design of the svg weapons, but in my opinion he followed real life heraldry too much when he used depictions from actual weapons, although GRRM created his own rules. The Citadel presents a lot of weapons which are approved by GRRM, and I think we should follow those ones more accurately. So if these svg weapons have some advantage ( I seem to remember something about the images being displayed in a better way), I think the weapons should be revised a bit to adjust them. 

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@Ran

Question:  I made an article on "Silk", because there's already a few on "substances" - that is, there was enough specific info about "Silk in the storyverse" to merit generating an article.  Sheep are sheep, no need to define that.  But I listed off all the citations that "Silk mostly comes from Yi Ti, often via Qarth" and also Naath.  Etc.  Just to point out "these are the regions that produce this substance and these are the ones that do not". 

....thinking of other major cash crops....where does Westeros get Sugar from?

Because we've seen people eating sugar confections in King's Landing, Renly's army camp (from Highgarden), and little sugar skull candies in Dorne. 

Now I looked it up, and in medieval times, honey was the most common sweetener in medieval Europe.  They only started getting sugar cane after the Middle Ages, when it was produced in the Levant - but even then, the Arabs themselves got sugar cane from India.  Which was always the heart and center of the industry. 

So...which are the big sugar-exporting regions?

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Rum is made with sugar. The Summer Islanders seem to export it. So, I'm guessing they are a primary source of sugar.

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On 4/26/2018 at 12:46 PM, Ran said:

December 20th sounds right for the embargo on new information. I think the one exception can be information from TWoIaF and the other publications (TSoD, TP&tQ, TRP) that may find itself revised or corrected in F&B (*ahem*), since it's not really new.

Ran, is these going to be a banner at the top of each wiki page stating that F&B updates on the wiki are allowed only from December 20 onwards? Like you did for TWOIAF?

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Do turkeys exist in Westeros?  Problematic, as they are a New World animal.

At the Fire & Blood launch event last night, GRRM joked that he’s not sure what people in Westeros would have for Thanksgiving, as “turkeys don’t exist”.  

This made the rounds on Twitter reports, prompting many to point out Theon chasing a “turkey” in book one.

Explanation?

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George forgot that turkeys are mentioned seems straightforward.

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Actually, I recalled something that may shed some new light on the "turkey".

Originally, in the 16th century, the term turkey was applied to the guinea fowl, which had been introduced to Europeans by way of the Turks. Then when the vaguely similar wild turkey of NA was first spotted, the same term was applied.

Ergo, Westeros has "turkeys", but they're some variety of Old World guineafowl and not the North American wild turkey.

Maybe that's what George means by saying they have no Thanksgiving turkey.

(More likely he just forgot, though. ;)

Edited by Ran

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Ser, that was an extremely technical and obscure use of arcane and trivial knowledge about medieval society.

(bows)

I doff my hat in respect.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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