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Random comment: still no solution to why images can't be resized. Not a forgotten issue.

We hope to get an upgrade going again in the next couple of months, give or take, and so at worst that may solve it... but hopefully we'll find something sooner.

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We have many disambiguation pages on the wiki, but their lay-out isn't the same overall:

There's disambiguation pages like this one

And this one

And this one

The first and the third are mostly the same in their layout..

But shouldn't we have one lay-out for all disambiguation pages, for consistency? And if so, which one is the best?

They all look the same to me, what is the difference? :dunno:

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Like I said, the first and third one are not so different.. Only the first sentence differs (Three characters named Rhaenys Targaryen are mentioned in the books:) and (Brandon Stark was the name of several members of House Stark of Winterfell:)



Their lay-out is mostly the same.



The second one has a different layout, though. It starts off with (Prince Aemon Targaryen, called Aemon the Dragonknight, was a son of Viserys II and a member of the Kingsguard for four kings.)



and continues with (Aemon Targaryen also refer to:)* and next lists all those others who were named Aemon Targaryen.



So why is the dragonknight singled out on this disambiguation page? Shouldn't it just be a chronological list, like was done for Brandon and Rhaenys?



*"refer" should obviously be "refers" :) but that's not the issue I'm referring to


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We have many disambiguation pages on the wiki, but their lay-out isn't the same overall:

There's disambiguation pages like this one

And this one

And this one

The first and the third are mostly the same in their layout..

But shouldn't we have one lay-out for all disambiguation pages, for consistency? And if so, which one is the best?

Wikipedia's recommendations are at Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages. If there is a primary topic, such as Lord Walder Frey, then he should be bolded and linked in the first sentence of the disambiguation page ("Walder Frey (disambiguation)", with other articles named Walder Frey listed below (see WP:MOSDABPRIMARY). If there is no primary topic, such as the case with "Wyl", then that page should be a disambiguation page and "Wyl (disambiguation)" should not exist. Looking at Category:Disambiguation pages, there are probably a number of disambiguation pages that can have "(disambiguation)" removed from their names.

Within a disambiguation page, only the entries being disambiguated should be linked (see WP:MOSDABENTRY). Using "Walder Frey (disambiguation)" as an example, Black Walder Frey's entry should be "Black Walder Frey, the second son of Ryman Frey", not "Black Walder Frey, the second son of Ryman Frey". The example of "Brandon Stark (disambiguation)" is currently overlinked (the only links on it should be to articles relating to Brandon Stark, not to their family members, lands, titles, spoilers, etc.).

Regarding the example of Aemon the Dragonknight, it is currently the way it is because his article is at "Aemon Targaryen", with the disambiguation page being "Aemon Targaryen (disambiguation)". Since he is at "Aemon Targaryen", he is currently considered the primary topic and is emphasized at the start of "Aemon Targaryen (disambiguation)". If the Dragonknight article were to be renamed to "Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)", then he would no longer be the primary topic for "Aemon Targaryen" and the disambiguation would be moved from "Aemon Targaryen (disambiguation)" to "Aemon Targaryen" (since the Dragonknight would then be at "Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)"). In that case, the new disambiguation page, "Aemon Targaryen", would not emphasize the Dragonknight at the start (since he is no longer the primary topic) but would just list all possible Aemon Targaryens in alphabetical or chronological order.

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Alright, it makes more sense now.



How do we decide whether, to stick with the example, the page of Aemon remains Aemon Targaryen, and not becomes Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)?



Looking at the Daenerys Targaryen case, that is simple. Aegon IV's daughter lived 100 years ago, and Dany is a POV, so sure, that the page Daenerys Targaryen refers to Dany, and not to the daughter of Aegon IV, that makes sense.



But as to Aemon Targaryen, what is the distinction in saying the Dragonknight is the main article, and not an article of the same "importance" (for lack of a better word) than Aemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)?



Just wondering.


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Random comment: still no solution to why images can't be resized. Not a forgotten issue.

We hope to get an upgrade going again in the next couple of months, give or take, and so at worst that may solve it... but hopefully we'll find something sooner.

I just now saw this post. Good to hear.

If I might ask, HelenaAndTheMachine and I have had a discussion on this thread about world book info and the wiki, for during the spoiler period. After you expressed that familytree updates would be allowed, but content-filled pages for new characters (or, I take it, additions for characters we already know about) isn't allowed, during the 3 month spoiler period.

Helena & I came up with the idea that new pages for all new characters can be created, during those three months, but that those pages should only contain the characters infobox (stating their hose, their birth year, their death year, their spouse), an updated family tree, and 1 or 2 lines of text stating which house they were from, who their parents were, but not, for example, which events they were involved in, or how they died, or such.

In that way, someone whose reading the world book and who thinks, "Gee, who is Sarella Lannister?", that person can just type in the name in the search box of the wiki, and a page will turn up with the family tree on it, and when she was born.

How she died, or all she did during her lifetime, would then not be on such a page.

This page (Tion Lannister) was created after the Westerland reading, for example. Like this, or perhaps containing even less information?

I was wondering how you feel about such an approach, for during the three month spoiler period?

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But as to Aemon Targaryen, what is the distinction in saying the Dragonknight is the main article, and not an article of the same "importance" (for lack of a better word) than Aemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)?

Excellent question. In many cases the articles are currently titled based on when they were created, rather than relative importance. This is giving things mentioned in earlier works like AGOT and ACOK perhaps more weight than they should have. From WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

There is no single criterion for defining a primary topic. However, there are two major aspects that are commonly discussed in connection with primary topics:

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely - much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined - to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.

The article on the Stark guardsman Wyl was created in 2009 and the article on the Dornish castle Wyl was created in 2011, but both have minor importance to the story and neither would be a primary topic. We previously had the guard at "Wyl" and a disambiguation page at "Wyl (disambiguation)" until I moved the guard to "Wyl (guard)" and the disambiguation page to "Wyl", since there is no primary meaning.

AWOIAF currently has an article about a maester at "Uthor" and a disambiguation page at "Uthor (disambiguation)". Maester Uthor does not seem to be significantly more important than Uthor Tollett or Uther Underleaf, IMO, so my recommendation would be to move the maester to "Uthor (maester)" and have "Uthor" be a disambiguation page.

While not a POV character, Eddard's brother Benjen is more notable to readers than his ancestors of the same name, so he is correctly at "Benjen Stark" while Benjen the Bitter and Benjen the Sweet are mentioned at "Benjen Stark (disambiguation)".

Each topic would have to be considered on a case by case basis, I think.

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Each topic would have to be considered on a case by case basis, I think.

That would be fine by me. I agree on your reasoning for "Benjen Stark", that one seems obvious.

For Aemon Targaryen, though, I am seriously doubting if the Dragonknight can be considered the "main topic", as maester Aemon is a more important character (despite having given up his last name upon taking his vows, he was born with that full name).

We could do such discussions here, but perhaps a thread for these issue's specifically is an idea? I don't know how many such cases are left to be discussed?

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That would be fine by me. I agree on your reasoning for "Benjen Stark", that one seems obvious.

For Aemon Targaryen, though, I am seriously doubting if the Dragonknight can be considered the "main topic", as maester Aemon is a more important character (despite having given up his last name upon taking his vows, he was born with that full name).

We could do such discussions here, but perhaps a thread for these issue's specifically is an idea? I don't know how many such cases are left to be discussed?

I would agree that Maester Aemon should be the main topic under Aemon Tagaryen. We know much more about him that Aemon the Dragonknight, or the father of Rhaenys

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If we're going to discuss this in this thread, here are the following characters who I think the disambiguation pages and the main topic should be discussed:



  • Aemon Targaryen. The main topic is currently the Dragonknight. We have 3 Aemon Targaryens now, the son of Jaehaerys I, the son of Aegon IV, and maester Aemon. Maester Aemon seems to be the most important of these three. Should we change Maester Aemon to the main topic, and change "Aemon Targaryen" to "Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)"?
  • Elaena Targaryen. Currently, both "Elaena" and "Elaena Targaryen" refer to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Elaena, Gaemon's daughter on Dragonstone. Should we redirect the term "Elaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Gaemon)" and "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented?
  • Rhaena Targaryen. Currently "Rhaena Targaryen" refers to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Rhaena of Pentos, Daemons daughter. Should we redirect the term "Rhaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Daemon)" and "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented? And Rhaena, daughter of Aenys I, after the worldbook release?
  • Daeron Targaryen. Currently, the main topic is Egg's eldest brother. Is Daeron the Drunken indeed more important than Daeron the Daring, son of Viserys I?


In addition, shouldn't the term Baelor Targaryen refer to a disambiguation page where you can choose between King Baelor I, and Baelor Breakspear? The same would go for the names of all kings. People who search for a king named Aegon Targaryen, but who can't remember the number, might just type in "Aegon Targaryen", which will currently bring them to the page of Rhaegar's son.


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I can agree with that.

What about the others?

Hmmm

  • Aemon Targaryen. The main topic is currently the Dragonknight. We have 3 Aemon Targaryens now, the son of Jaehaerys I, the son of Aegon IV, and maester Aemon. Maester Aemon seems to be the most important of these three. Should we change Maester Aemon to the main topic, and change "Aemon Targaryen" to "Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)"?

Elaena Targaryen. Currently, both "Elaena" and "Elaena Targaryen" refer to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Elaena, Gaemon's daughter on Dragonstone. Should we redirect the term "Elaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Gaemon)" and "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented?

Rhaena Targaryen. Currently "Rhaena Targaryen" refers to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Rhaena of Pentos, Daemons daughter. Should we redirect the term "Rhaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Daemon)" and "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented? And Rhaena, daughter of Aenys I, after the worldbook release?

Daeron Targaryen. Currently, the main topic is Egg's eldest brother. Is Daeron the Drunken indeed more important than Daeron the Daring, son of Viserys I?

I think Aemon Targaryen should refer to Maester Aemon - we have much more information about him than any other Aemon.

Mentioned Elaena already.

Right now, I think that we have the most information about Rhaena, daughter of Aegon III. Rhaena of Pentos we only really know her place of birth and where she was during the Dance. With Rhaena, daughter of Aegon III, we know her appearance, mannerisms, and that she became a septa in later life.

I'm not sure about Daeron though

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Aemon Targaryen. The main topic is currently the Dragonknight. We have 3 Aemon Targaryens now, the son of Jaehaerys I, the son of Aegon IV, and maester Aemon. Maester Aemon seems to be the most important of these three. Should we change Maester Aemon to the main topic, and change "Aemon Targaryen" to "Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)"?

"Aemon Targaryen" probably should be a disambiguation page, IMO. The maester is usually not referred to as "Aemon Targaryen" but as "Maester Aemon", so he could be moved from "Aemon" to "Aemon Targaryen (maester)" or "Aemon Targaryen (son of Maekar I)".

Elaena Targaryen. Currently, both "Elaena" and "Elaena Targaryen" refer to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Elaena, Gaemon's daughter on Dragonstone. Should we redirect the term "Elaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Gaemon)" and "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented?

I agree with Helena that Aegon III's daughter should be the primary article, because we currently know significantly more about her than about Gaemon's daughter. "Elaena Targaryen", the article about Aegon III's daughter, is currently flawed, however, because it doesn't have a disclaimer link to "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Gaemon)".

Rhaena Targaryen. Currently "Rhaena Targaryen" refers to the daughter of Aegon III. We know little about her, about the same as we know about Rhaena of Pentos, Daemons daughter. Should we redirect the term "Rhaena Targaryen" to the disambiguation page, where "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Daemon)" and "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)" are presented? And Rhaena, daughter of Aenys I, after the worldbook release?

I agree that Aegon's Rhaena should probably be moved to "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)". "Rhaena Targaryen (disambiguation)" would then be moved to "Rhaena Targaryen" - this is because "(disambiguation)" is only needed in a title if there is already a primary topic, and in this case Aegon's daughter would no longer be the primary topic.

Daeron Targaryen. Currently, the main topic is Egg's eldest brother. Is Daeron the Drunken indeed more important than Daeron the Daring, son of Viserys I?

"Daeron Targaryen (disambiguation)" should probably be moved to "Daeron Targaryen", with links to "Daeron Targaryen (son of Viserys I)", "Daeron Targaryen (son of Maekar I)", and the two kings.

In addition, shouldn't the term Baelor Targaryen refer to a disambiguation page where you can choose between King Baelor I, and Baelor Breakspear? The same would go for the names of all kings. People who search for a king named Aegon Targaryen, but who can't remember the number, might just type in "Aegon Targaryen", which will currently bring them to the page of Rhaegar's son.

That makes sense.

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"Aemon Targaryen" probably should be a disambiguation page, IMO. The maester is usually not referred to as "Aemon Targaryen" but as "Maester Aemon", so he could be moved from "Aemon" to "Aemon Targaryen (maester)" or "Aemon Targaryen (son of Maekar I)".

Done. Could be that I missed some references to the dragonknight on some pages.

I agree with Helena that Aegon III's daughter should be the primary article, because we currently know significantly more about her than about Gaemon's daughter. "Elaena Targaryen", the article about Aegon III's daughter, is currently flawed, however, because it doesn't have a disclaimer link to "Elaena Targaryen (daughter of Gaemon)".

Fine by me. Elaena (daughter of Aegon III) now has a link to Elaena (daughter of Gaemon), and the Elaena (daughter of Aegon III) now has a link to Elaena (daughter of Gaemon).

I agree that Aegon's Rhaena should probably be moved to "Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aegon III)". "Rhaena Targaryen (disambiguation)" would then be moved to "Rhaena Targaryen" - this is because "(disambiguation)" is only needed in a title if there is already a primary topic, and in this case Aegon's daughter would no longer be the primary topic.

Done

"Daeron Targaryen (disambiguation)" should probably be moved to "Daeron Targaryen", with links to "Daeron Targaryen (son of Viserys I)", "Daeron Targaryen (son of Maekar I)", and the two kings.

This still has to be done (it's getting late :p )

That makes sense.

This also still has to be done, but on this topic, shouldn't this be done for all the kings?

So Baelor, Daeron, Aegon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Aerys?

And also for Daella (daughter of Maekar I and daughter of Jaehaerys I)? Daella Targaryen currently links immediately to Maekar's daughter.

Is there a way to see which pages link to one specific page? That might make all this a bit easier...

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Is there a way to see which pages link to one specific page? That might make all this a bit easier...

Along the left-hand panel of each article, "What links here" should be within the Toolbox section which is below the Notable Releases section. Clicking that will bring up a screen displaying all other articles linking to the article in question. For instance, this shows all links to the article about Rhaenys Targaryen. The results page also allows you to filter by links and redirects. The latter is helpful to check because a redirect should never link to another redirect; double redirects often occur if an article has been moved a few times.

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