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Should we refrain from including page numbers in the references?



I have several times now included them when I had them available, most recently in the Uthor Underleaf and Leo Longthorn articles. I was consistently careful to include the page range of the specific edition I used.



Yet, to my considerable dismay, it seems that pretty much all of those were edited out rather uncerimoniously.



I am trying to understand why that would be desirable, but I have failed so far. Any thoughts?


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Should we refrain from including page numbers in the references?

I have several times now included them when I had them available, most recently in the Uthor Underleaf and Leo Longthorn articles. I was consistently careful to include the page range of the specific edition I used.

Yet, to my considerable dismay, it seems that pretty much all of those were edited out rather uncerimoniously.

I am trying to understand why that would be desirable, but I have failed so far. Any thoughts?

The only thing I can think is that maybe the page numbers are inconsistent across different editions of the books?

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The only thing I can think is that maybe the page numbers are inconsistent across different editions of the books?

Most likely this yeah. Also different countries might have different page numbers too

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Should we refrain from including page numbers in the references?

I have several times now included them when I had them available, most recently in the Uthor Underleaf and Leo Longthorn articles. I was consistently careful to include the page range of the specific edition I used.

Yet, to my considerable dismay, it seems that pretty much all of those were edited out rather uncerimoniously.

I am trying to understand why that would be desirable, but I have failed so far. Any thoughts?

Personally, I'd say leave them out. Page numbers differ per edition, and in addition, it looks better imo in the reference list below when there are only chapters mentioned, not page numbers.

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http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hand_of_the_King

Is it stated that Lord Butterwell was Hand prior to Lord Lothston?

No, we don't know the correct order.. We don't know when Bracken ended his term either, nor how long Lord Hightower was Hand. Butterwell could have been Hand in between Bracken and Lothston, or after Hightower...

If this quote can be taken literally, it should be after Hightower:

[Ambrose Butterwell] was once the King's Hand, as his father's father was before him.

TMK

Can we take this literally?

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I think that came up in the WOIAF, if not Dunk and Egg...

I can't find it anywhere.

Can we take this literally?

No, I don't think so.

Is there anything suggesting that Bracken was still Hand at the time of his execution?

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I can't find it anywhere.

No, I don't think so.

Is there anything suggesting that Bracken was still Hand at the time of his execution?

I may have misunderstood, my bad. I just meant the quote Rhaenys gave, showing that he was hand at some point

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If these templates are supposed to be up to date as of the end of ADWD, then Template:HousesStormlands is arguably inaccurate by presenting the black stag of House Baratheon as the main house. Since Stannis is attainted by the Iron Throne, Tommen Baratheon is often considered the current head of House Baratheon and the lord of the stormlands. However, Tommen continues to use the combatant stag and lion started by Joffrey, not the historical Baratheon stag. While most of the storm lords have submitted to Joffrey/Tommen, Stannis holds Storm's End at the end of ADWD. Stannis, however, uses the fiery heart instead of the traditional Baratheon stag.



Another consideration is that preview chapters from TWOW indicate

Young Griff / Aegon Targaryen will conquer Storm's End. If he claims the stormlands for himself, is the template going to be updated to have the Targaryen dragon instead of the Baratheon stag? Similarly, if Aegon grants the stormlands to Jon Connington, will the Baratheon stag be replaced in the template with the Connington griffin?



The current template also lists House Caron as extinct, but this is not necessarily accurate, as Rolland Storm is the pretender Lord of Nightsong (as per the ADWD Appendix). We don't know what GRRM's intentions are for the characters; he may end up being legitimized as a Caron and replacing Philip Foote. I think many of these templates should depict the situation as of the start of AGOT, not the end of the most recent book.




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Wouldn't it be possible to make a template where the situation as of Game is displayed, and with a collapsible part on the bottom displaying the situation as of the last released book (in this case Dance)?

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I really dont think this should be on Rhaegars page:






Eddard Stark, Robert's friend and Lyanna's brother, remembers Rhaegar in a neutral manner


The citation that its based off of are these:





There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.





“Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar.” Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. “Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?”




The first reveals nothing about Neds feelings towards Rhaegar except that he didnt think that he went to brothels, and neither does the second as it only reveals that Robert never feared Rhaegar. So theres no basis for saying that Ned thinks about Rhaegar in a neutral manner, except for the fact that he doesnt ever think of him in any particular way. In which case, theres then no reason to be pointing out that he doesnt have any particular feelings towards Rhaegar as you can do that for every character in the books.



So I would remove that sentence as it does nothing and its citations do not show this.


Edited by markg171

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I think the editor noticed that where Robert really hates Rhaegar, Eddard does not display that emotion. I think this difference is noteworthy. Especially as Robert accused Rhaegar of having raped Eddard's sister. It looks a bit like "the curious incident of the dog in the night-time".


But I agree that "neutral" may be too strong worded. Better to just to state that Eddard's only thought about Rheagar that is mentioned in the books, is that he did not think Rhaegar had frequented brothels.

Edited by Scafloc

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Wouldn't it be possible to make a template where the situation as of Game is displayed, and with a collapsible part on the bottom displaying the situation as of the last released book (in this case Dance)?

Somewhat like this?

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I think the editor noticed that where Robert really hates Rhaegar, Eddard does not display that emotion. I think this difference is noteworthy. Especially as Robert accused Rhaegar of having raped Eddard's sister. It looks a bit like "the curious incident of the dog in the night-time".

But I agree that "neutral" may be too strong worded. Better to just to state that Eddard's only thought about Rheagar that is mentioned in the books, is that he did not think Rhaegar had frequented brothels.

Eddard really doesn't display any negative emotion in the series, other than to the Lannisters. He never says anything bad about Aerys who definitely killed his father and brother, so I don't really see the importance of saying that he doesn't feel anything towards Rhaegar who might have raped his sister. For him, the matter was settled when both died.

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