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How should the differences be shown? And what is the base; begin of Agot or end adwd?

Any differrnces can maybe shown as a note hidden inside a spoiler tag or collapsible section?

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Eddard really doesn't display any negative emotion in the series, other than to the Lannisters. He never says anything bad about Aerys who definitely killed his father and brother, so I don't really see the importance of saying that he doesn't feel anything towards Rhaegar who might have raped his sister. For him, the matter was settled when both died.

Eddard does not wear his emotions on his sleeve but it is clear he does like some people: for instance Jorah Mormont "Would that I might forget him." and also Aerys “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?” and (on Roberts deathbed) “not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys.”

Edited by Scafloc

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Somewhat like this?

Yeah, but with the section on the situation as of Dance collapsed, so you won't immediately see it.

Another solution wound be to use two templates, one open, showing the situation as of agot, and one closed, showing the situation as of the end of adwd.

Listing only differences might make it less clear for wiki-readers.

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Not sure if it is possible to include two collapsible elements in one table. It is probably better to use two templates like you suggested or two tables on the same template. Like this.



About showing the change: I think it would be hard to present the changes in the tables in a clear way. What would the Great House row of the table look? "Used to be House Stark, is as of the end of A Storm of Swords" House Bolton.


We should also take into account that it seems that the Manderlys and Stannis do not seem to have accepted this. Although this issue is unrelated to the problem how to show the changes (in nice way)


Edited by Scafloc

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Not sure if it is possible to include two collapsible elements in one table. It is probably better to use two templates like you suggested or two tables on the same template. Like this.

Yes, like that. We could do such for all the Kingdoms where such situations apply.

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Personally, I'd say leave them out. Page numbers differ per edition, and in addition, it looks better imo in the reference list below when there are only chapters mentioned, not page numbers.

I can't say I follow. Having the range of page numbers of the tale or chapter along with the page number itself pretty much removes any disadvantage from edition variation, and not having any page number makes the task of finding the actual reference quite the chore.

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House Strong is still said to hold Harrenhal between 1 AC and 196 AC. I think the date can be narrowed down to "between (several years) after 48 AC (death of Haroways) and (before) 151 (Lucas Lohstone receives Harrenhal) or 131" (mentioned as year, the house died out, though that would mean that Harrenhal stood empty for 20 years).



Stafford Lannisters page contains the sentence "His wife is not mentioned" right above the family tree, though myrander is listed there.

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I can't say I follow. Having the range of page numbers of the tale or chapter along with the page number itself pretty much removes any disadvantage from edition variation, and not having any page number makes the task of finding the actual reference quite the chore.





I agree sometimes finding the reference can be a chore, I've been there. But again the problem is that my page numbers might not match up with yours. Having a page number that is not correct for your edition would make it even more confusing. Just giving the chapter may not be very precise, but at least we know it's accurate for everybody.






House Strong is still said to hold Harrenhal between 1 AC and 196 AC. I think the date can be narrowed down to "between (several years) after 48 AC (death of Haroways) and (before) 151 (Lucas Lohstone receives Harrenhal) or 131" (mentioned as year, the house died out, though that would mean that Harrenhal stood empty for 20 years).



Stafford Lannisters page contains the sentence "His wife is not mentioned" right above the family tree, though myrander is listed there.





It probably did sit empty for twenty years. It was burned again during the Dance and after the war nobody really had the money to repair it for a while. Looks like Rhaenys already fixed the Stafford's wife thing.


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Not sure if it is possible to include two collapsible elements in one table. It is probably better to use two templates like you suggested or two tables on the same template. Like this.

About showing the change: I think it would be hard to present the changes in the tables in a clear way. What would the Great House row of the table look? "Used to be House Stark, is as of the end of A Storm of Swords" House Bolton.

We should also take into account that it seems that the Manderlys and Stannis do not seem to have accepted this. Although this issue is unrelated to the problem how to show the changes (in nice way)

That looks pretty good, Scafloc!

Is it possible to do something similar with Template:Infobox character and Template:Noble House? For instance, Sansa's article could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox followed by a collapsed ADWD infobox (with info about her marriage to Tyrion and Alayne nickname). House Florent could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox (with them in control of Brightwater Keep) and a collapsed ADWD infobox (discussing their attainder). I think the templates would have to be changed to allow them to be collapsible, though.

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Not sure if it is possible to include two collapsible elements in one table. It is probably better to use two templates like you suggested or two tables on the same template. Like this.

About showing the change: I think it would be hard to present the changes in the tables in a clear way. What would the Great House row of the table look? "Used to be House Stark, is as of the end of A Storm of Swords" House Bolton.

We should also take into account that it seems that the Manderlys and Stannis do not seem to have accepted this. Although this issue is unrelated to the problem how to show the changes (in nice way)

That looks pretty good, Scafloc!

Is it possible to do something similar with Template:Infobox character and Template:Noble House? For instance, Sansa's article could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox followed by a collapsed ADWD infobox (with info about her marriage to Tyrion and Alayne nickname). House Florent could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox (with them in control of Brightwater Keep) and a collapsed ADWD infobox (discussing their attainder). I think the templates would have to be changed to allow them to be collapsible, though.

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I agree sometimes finding the reference can be a chore, I've been there. But again the problem is that my page numbers might not match up with yours. Having a page number that is not correct for your edition would make it even more confusing. Just giving the chapter may not be very precise, but at least we know it's accurate for everybody.

Has it ever been considered to use the paragraph number ? They're not numbered, but you can always count them by hand, and above all it's independent of the editions.

For example :

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord." (101-069)

Edited by Mychel_Redfort

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Has it ever been considered to use the paragraph number ? They're not numbered, but you can always count them by hand, and above all it's independent of the editions.

For example :

Hmm.. I must say I'm not a fan.. The chapters aren't that long, and once you know which chapter a quote is from, finding the actual info is a matter of minutes.

Also, the wiki at times uses one sentence where the books use multiple sentences across multiple pages from one chapter...

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That looks pretty good, Scafloc!

Is it possible to do something similar with Template:Infobox character and Template:Noble House? For instance, Sansa's article could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox followed by a collapsed ADWD infobox (with info about her marriage to Tyrion and Alayne nickname). House Florent could have an uncollapsed AGOT infobox (with them in control of Brightwater Keep) and a collapsed ADWD infobox (discussing their attainder). I think the templates would have to be changed to allow them to be collapsible, though.

I'll check what I can do

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This bolded isn't right:







The Great Harrenhal tourney

Date: 281 AC, Main article: Tourney at Harrenhal


Possibly the most pivotal event prior to A Song of Ice and Fire, this tourney took place more than a decade before the events in A Game of Thrones, and only few details have been disclosed so far. The tourney was held by Lord Walter Whent in honor of his daughter and to show off his house's power; it was the greatest tourney of its time and perhaps ever. Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was champion, and in the end chose Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty. This was scandalous in that, not only was Rhaegar already married (to Elia Martell), but Lyanna herself was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. Rhaegar's indiscretion culminated in his abduction of Lyanna a year later, which touched off the War of the Usurper and brought an end to Targaryen rule. Also at this occasion, 15-year-old Jaime Lannister was admitted into the order of the Kingsguard, and a mystery knight, the "Knight of the Laughing Tree", appeared in the lists to fight for the honour ofHowland Reed of Greywater Watch.


Champion: Rhaegar Targaryen.


  • Unknown jousters defeated the 4 sons of Lord Walter Whent of Harrenhal
  • The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated a member of House Haigh
  • The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated a member of House Blount
  • The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated a member of House Frey
  • Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Yohn Royce
  • Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Brandon Stark
  • Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Arthur Dayne
  • Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Barristan Selmy

Other participants: Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Robert Baratheon, and Richard Lonmouth.



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/History_of_tourneys_in_Westeros#The_Great_Harrenhal_tourney



- Gerold Hightower never competed in anything as far as we know. He was just there.


- Oswell Whent competed in the joust. He was one of the original 5 champions.


- Robert Baratheon competed in the melee, not the joust.


- Richard Lonmouth never competed as far we know. He was just there.



So I would either strike Richard and Gerold out of there or include them in a list of attendees. I would add Whent to the list of jouster and say he was defeated by an unknown jouster (as he would have had to have been for Rhaegar and Barristan to be the finalists), and I would either add a separate section for melee participants and put Robert in that, or simply strike him off as well


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http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Horn_of_winter



The Horn of Winter, also known as the Horn of Joramun, is a legendary horn with magical properties. It was supposedly blown by Joramun, a wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall. When he blew the horn, he woke the giants from the earth. [1] Whether the giants mentioned are actually the giants or something else is not known.




I think we can be reasonably sure the giants mentioned are metaphorical, not actual giants. I wanted to get others opinions.




And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken...


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This is just a description of an earth quake, isn't it?

Right, "waking giants from/in the earth" seems to be a way of describing an earthquake. So presumably the horn is supposed to cause an earthquake that would bring down the Wall.

Edit: the idea that this horn somehow caused the actual giants to wake up and climb out of the ground is a little silly. Especially since the giants are said to have existed in Westeros long before Joramun or even the Wall.

Edited by RumHam

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The entries of Aegon III and Viserys II both name Visenya explicitly as their "only sister" ("This pregnancy led to the birth of Viserys' only sister, named Visenya." "This pregnancy led to the birth of the only sister Aegon would have, named Visenya"), but Baela and Rhaena could probably count as sisters as well. They are however not mentioned unlike the three Velaryons.


Visenya could be the "only full-blood-sister" or "his mother's only daughter".


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