Jump to content
Onion Knight

The ASOIAF wiki thread

Recommended Posts

I would agree if the range of page numbers of the whole book (or tale, in the case of Dunk & Egg) were not given.

Edited to add: Taking a single page reference with the full page range of the chapter or tale and doing a very simple subtraction, rule of 3 and addition is after all enough to come very close indeed to the exact page even in editions in other languages in pretty much all cases. That is just not worth giving up when the values are already known.

When they are, then removing the page references becomes a matter of choosing to throw away a slightly inexact reference (rarely if ever away from the mark by more than a couple of pages, if that much, regardless of edition) in order to have no reference whatsoever.

That... just does not make any sense IMO. It is throwing out the baby in order to keep the water. And more than slightly disappointing for one such as me who painstakingly produced what, frankly, was very much an useful piece of information just to see it sumarily and unfairly disregarded with no discernible justification.

I'm sorry you made all that effort and it got rolled back, that sucks. I don't set the policy. If I did I'd consider something where the actual quote from the book that is the source was included, maybe on separate reference page. Then there would be no confusion, and people with digital copies could find the quotes with the search function if they wanted to confirm their accuracy and that they're being interpreted correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not necessary to be in an infobox, right. That's info to be learned when reading further down on the page...

I think you are right about that yes...assuming I am correct in what it means of course :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry you made all that effort and it got rolled back, that sucks. I don't set the policy. If I did I'd consider something where the actual quote from the book that is the source was included, maybe on separate reference page. Then there would be no confusion, and people with digital copies could find the quotes with the search function if they wanted to confirm their accuracy and that they're being interpreted correctly.

This isn't related specifically to the sourcing issue, but Help:Manual of Style hasn't been changed much over the years and might benefit from some expansion.

For instance, it currently states "An article should begin with an introductory lead section, that provide an overview of the topic, briefly summarizing the article for the reader." This is based on WP:LEAD. Ran does not want spoilers at the start of articles (1 & 2), however, so that part of the MOS could be rephrased. With Ran's comments in mind, how about something similar to:

"An article should begin with an introductory lead section which summarizes the subject's status when it is introduced in the story. As a form of spoiler protection, plot details from the books should be presented in a chronological context through the Recent Events section."?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not all that well known with the rules of copyright and such, for images on the wiki, so I figured I could first ask here, before spending multiple evenings trying to figure it out.



For the page on "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms", would it be ok to use the image GRRM posted on his blog for the infobox book cover? Or is that not allowed?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is fine. That's released for marketing and promotional purposes.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am reading The Princess and the Queen and I edited Roderick Dustin's entry to reflect his appearance in that tale, only to have it reverted into a mention instead. How does that work?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry you made all that effort and it got rolled back, that sucks. I don't set the policy. If I did I'd consider something where the actual quote from the book that is the source was included, maybe on separate reference page. Then there would be no confusion, and people with digital copies could find the quotes with the search function if they wanted to confirm their accuracy and that they're being interpreted correctly.

Thanks.

It is actually surprising to me that there is even any discussion on this matter. I suppose being used to ebooks has its disadvantages.

Where can I check that policy?

Edited by LuisDantas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am reading The Princess and the Queen and I edited Roderick Dustin's entry to reflect his appearance in that tale, only to have it reverted into a mention instead. How does that work?

Because it is a historical work. With appear, so far, it is meant that a character has walked around in the story. In a historical work, the characters don't appear... They are mentioned by the maester writing the book. This goes for TRP, TPATQ, and TWoIaF.

This is at least the way I understood it. It hasn't been done with 100% consistency so far, which is definitely something that should be corrected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because it is a historical work. With appear, so far, it is meant that a character has walked around in the story. In a historical work, the characters don't appear... They are mentioned by the maester writing the book. This goes for TRP, TPATQ, and TWoIaF.

This is at least the way I understood it. It hasn't been done with 100% consistency so far, which is definitely something that should be corrected.

Thanks for the clarification. Between the known frequent use of unreliable narrators in ASOIAF and the survival of somewhat conflicting accounts of the Dance, I suppose that is a fair call, but yes, some explicit statements for reference could be a good idea.

It is also slightly frustrating, since it basically means that (for instance) only Archmaester Gyldayn appears in TPATQ despite it not even being about him. Maybe we could agree on having a separate status for such characters as Princess Rhaenyra who go well beyond simple glancing mentions? Something like "featured", "narrated", or even "spotlighted", perhaps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarification. Between the known frequent use of unreliable narrators in ASOIAF and the survival of somewhat conflicting accounts of the Dance, I suppose that is a fair call, but yes, some explicit statements for reference could be a good idea.

It is also slightly frustrating, since it basically means that (for instance) only Archmaester Gyldayn appears in TPATQ despite it not even being about him. Maybe we could agree on having a separate status for such characters as Princess Rhaenyra who go well beyond simple glancing mentions? Something like "featured", "narrated", or even "spotlighted", perhaps?

Hmm. We could, but then where do we make the distinction. How do we determine who is only mentioned and who has a 'higher status'? I think that perhaps it might be better to keep it the same for all characters, but other people might feel differently..

But perhaps other people have other suggestions?

And Gyldayn doesn't appear either. He only mentions himself with the title of the work, right? Or did you mean something else?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Gyldayn doesn't appear either. He only mentions himself with the title of the work, right? Or did you mean something else?

No, that is indeed what I meant. By your understanding, there are no actual characters appearing in TRP, TPATQ, nor TWoIaF. That is of course accurate by a certain perspective, but is more than a bit self-defeating as well. Rhaenyra and others do appear in TPATQ in a meaningful way, even if it can be suspected of inaccuracy.

In order not to be much too loose about what constitutes an appearance, I suggest as a starting point that a character must have his words spoken in the first person somewhere in the tale, and it must be during the timeframe of the main story. So, for instance, Prince Daeron Targaryen (who spoke about Tessarion) has an appearance in TPATQ, as do all of Rhaenyra's sons except for Viserys and Visenya, while her father Viserys I (who dies early during the time frame and is mentioned many times) is only mentioned. Another character that is mentioned as opposed to making an appearance is Alyn of Hull.

Going by those criteria, though, Addam of Hull would IIRC not be making an appearance despite having unquestionably been an active part of the tale, to the point of being decisive to the overall plot beyond any reasonable controversies. That does at least feel unfair. So what about:

"A character's status in a book or tale should be recorded as mentioned if either the narrator or any of the characters with speaking parts mentions him unequivocally, preferably by name. If the character also has speaking parts, even if brief, or is uncontroversially the performer of actions with plot significance during the timeframe of the book, then he qualifies as having made an appearance instead of simply being mentioned, unless there is uncertainty that he was significantly involved."

That would mean, for instance, that the "real identity" of the Three-Eyed Crow has not made an appearance in ASOIAF before ADWD, although he has been mentioned before that. We would have to reconsider if he is somehow an impostor, of course.

So, for TPATQ, that would make these character qualify as making appearances (among others, of course):

Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, Aegon II Targaryen, Aegon III Targaryen, Lucerys Targaryen, Jacaerys Targaryen, Daemon Targaryen, Alicent Hightower, Aemond Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Roderick Dustin, the Seasnake, and most of the dragons (including Moondancer, but excluding Morning and the eggs).

Mentioned, among others, would be Harwin Strong, Viserys I Targaryen,

Borderline cases would include Rhaena Targaryen (I don't think guarding the eggs had plot significance) and Baela Targaryen (qualifies for an appearance IMO, given the events late on the tale). Lord Manderly participated only indirectly by sending his sons, so I count that as an mention for him and appearances of Medrick Manderly and Torrhen Manderly.

Edited by LuisDantas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I don't know. If you go by 'having spoken words quoted by the writing maester', Aerys II appears in TWOIAF, and I don't really feel that that would be accurate.

I get why you see characters as Rhaenyra as 'appeared' instead of 'mentioned', I did so too. But consistency is rather important here, and going by quoted words as a first criteria, can give various results.. the Sheppard who preaches against Rhaenyra for example is also quoted by Gyldayn, IIRC.

We could solve it perhaps by making a vote here, from a list of characters. But then we'd have to do so too for TRP and TWOIAF. And to be honest, I don't feel that any character truly appears in TWOIAF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come to think of it, plot-relevant actions should overrule spoken words anyway.



TWOIAF I have yet to read (gimme a couple of weeks). It does seem to be something of a special case, though.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An alternative is to do away with "appears" and "mentioned" in the infobox altogether. If a character is only mentioned in a book's appendix instead of the main text, that could be included in parentheses.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only understand the basics of how references work, so I'm posting this here rather than trying to fix it myself.



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Silent_sisters



A daughter of Ser Elys Waynwood was seduced by a sellsword, lost her bastard child by him and joined the silent sisters.[8]



But ref 8 is Chapter 41 (Jon) of Game, when this info comes from Littlefinger's Arryn family infodump in Sansa's last chapter in Feast.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×