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From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar’s gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.

Explain to me how this is Tyrion's opinion? He's stood in front of the skulls of Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar, and thus clearly knows how big they were at their deaths. Tyrion would also know the average size of a horse (Vhagar), and the size of an aurochs, or the hairy mammoths from beyond Ibben, would be known to him as well, most likely, due to the fact he reads a lot of books..

doubt he knew how big a mammoth was. he never saw one. that's why there was a shred of doubt in the last part of the sentence.

Edited by Nezi0

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Rhaegar Targeriens battle of the trident picture should be changed. the battle was on horse back not on foot. even GRR expressed annoyance on the incorrect depiction of the battle


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From the page about Borros Baratheon:


Borros kept the armies of the Stormlands out of heavy fighting for most of the war, "preserving" them and keeping them fresh and thought himself cunning because of it. He laughed when the Lannister armies were slaughtered at the Fishfeed, for his own army was unbloodied. He laughed when the armies of the Rivermen were burned by Vhagar and cut to pieces at First Battle of Tumbleton - the Hightowers were the ones who did all of the fighting and dying, and now Borros had the large and fully intact armies of the Stormlands to grind down the few Rivermen who remained.

I couldn't find anything about Borros laughing about the green hosts being slaughtered or thinking himself cunning.


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As discussed here, the picture currently featuring in the infobox for Lyanna Stark. Me and Scafloc discussed it for some time, but clearly, we never reached a conclusion both were happy about, and since it has been almost a month, I'd like to ask for more opinions.



I propose changing the current picture to the image by Marcos Feittossa, as I personally feel that that image depicts Lyanna more truthfull to the descriptions given about her and circumstantial evidence, than the current image does.



Any opinions, either here or on the discussion page for Lyanna Stark?


Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Catelyn and Lysa are currently titled under their maiden names, Catelyn Tully and Lysa Tully, respectively. GRRM more frequently uses their married names (Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn) within the novels, however. They are called under both names within the appendices.

Prior to 2010 there were rival entries for Cat at "Catelyn Stark" and "Catelyn Tully", and then in February 2010 The Pale Griffin changed "Catelyn Stark" to be a redirect to "Catelyn Tully". History merging is restricted to administrators.

Barring a history merge, to preserve the edit history of both versions, we could move "Catelyn Stark" to "Catelyn Stark/edit history" and then move "Catelyn Tully" to "Catelyn Stark". This way we have some editors' contributions preserved at "Catelyn Stark/edit history" and other editors' more recent contributions, originally at "Catelyn Tully", at the new "Catelyn Stark". "Catelyn Stark/edit history" could then be deleted, but its contributions would still be accessible if necessary through the undelete option.

Alternatively, the current "Catelyn Stark" could be deleted and "Catelyn Tully" could be moved to "Catelyn Stark", but that would hide the current Catelyn Stark edit history.

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Prior to 2010 there were rival entries for Cat at "Catelyn Stark" and "Catelyn Tully", and then in February 2010 The Pale Griffin changed "Catelyn Stark" to be a redirect to "Catelyn Tully". History merging is restricted to administrators.

Barring a history merge, to preserve the edit history of both versions, we could move "Catelyn Stark" to "Catelyn Stark/edit history" and then move "Catelyn Tully" to "Catelyn Stark". This way we have some editors' contributions preserved at "Catelyn Stark/edit history" and other editors' more recent contributions, originally at "Catelyn Tully", at the new "Catelyn Stark". "Catelyn Stark/edit history" could then be deleted, but its contributions would still be accessible if necessary through the undelete option.

Alternatively, the current "Catelyn Stark" could be deleted and "Catelyn Tully" could be moved to "Catelyn Stark", but that would hide the current Catelyn Stark edit history.

Why does Catelyn's page need to go to Catelyn Stark? Do we have a rule for this kind of thing?

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Why does Catelyn's page need to go to Catelyn Stark? Do we have a rule for this kind of thing?

Using A Search of Ice and Fire and ebook searches, George more frequently uses Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn within the novels. Catelyn Tully and Lysa Tully are almost always used in historical context (pre-AGOT).

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Actually, we could just copy the current version of "Catelyn Tully" to "Catelyn Stark", then edit "Catelyn Tully" into a redirect to the new "Catelyn Stark". This would be an exception to the preferred Move procedure.


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Actually, we could just copy the current version of "Catelyn Tully" to "Catelyn Stark", then edit "Catelyn Tully" into a redirect to the new "Catelyn Stark". This would be an exception to the preferred Move procedure.

Wouldn't it be an idea to keep it consistent to use birth names as far as we know them? The page could then very well start with "Catelyn Stark", born as "Catelyn Tully", etc..

I understand what you mean, for example, Lady Barbrey is mostly called Lady Dustin, not Ryswell, though that is her birth name. Though, her relations to House Ryswell are stressed a lot, as is done for both Catelyn and Lysa.

Whatever the decision becomes, it should be done consistently. Yet whatever the decision, "Catelyn Tully" currently has more than 400 redirects, "Catelyn Stark" .less than 200, if I saw that correctly in all my haste. So that should be changed with the page movement, I think.

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As discussed here, the picture currently featuring in the infobox for Lyanna Stark. Me and Scafloc discussed it for some time, but clearly, we never reached a conclusion both were happy about, and since it has been almost a month, I'd like to ask for more opinions.

I propose changing the current picture to the image by Marcos Feittossa, as I personally feel that that image depicts Lyanna more truthfull to the descriptions given about her and circumstantial evidence, than the current image does.

Any opinions, either here or on the discussion page for Lyanna Stark?

I personally like the Elia Fernandez image the best. Several of Elia's images are used in other articles, so there would be some consistency. The Dreambeing image is also good, and both Elia's and DB's images use brown hair. I find Riavel's too close up on Lyanna's face, and the style of Marcos's makes her hair look black. GRRM instead often specifies that Theon and the Baratheons have black hair.

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Wouldn't it be an idea to keep it consistent to use birth names as far as we know them? The page could then very well start with "Catelyn Stark", born as "Catelyn Tully", etc..

I understand what you mean, for example, Lady Barbrey is mostly called Lady Dustin, not Ryswell, though that is her birth name. Though, her relations to House Ryswell are stressed a lot, as is done for both Catelyn and Lysa.

Whatever the decision becomes, it should be done consistently. Yet whatever the decision, "Catelyn Tully" currently has more than 400 redirects, "Catelyn Stark" .less than 200, if I saw that correctly in all my haste. So that should be changed with the page movement, I think.

The ASOIAF wiki doesn't mention any policy for article titles at Help:Manual of Style. Wikipedia, the inspiration for AWOIAF, states,

Names are often used as article titles – such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. However, some topics have multiple names, and this can cause disputes as to which name should be used in the article's title. Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.

Our only reliable sources are George's publications. Using asearchoficeandfire.com (which does not search appendices), I find 10 results for Catelyn Tully and 69 results for Catelyn Stark. Similarly, there are 7 results for Lysa Tully and 42 for Lysa Arryn, as well as 1 for Olenna Redwyne (used prior to her marriage) and 4 for Olenna Tyrell. Listing both families is a good idea ("Barbrey Dustin, born Barbrey Ryswell," or "Donella Hornwood is the Lady of Hornwood ... Originally from House Manderly, ...")

Updating redirects usually isn't a high priority, since George often uses multiple names for things (but articles should be titled after his primary usage). Wikipedia states,

There is usually nothing wrong with linking to redirects to articles. Some editors are tempted, upon finding a link to a redirect page, to bypass the redirect and point the link directly at the target page. While there are a limited number of cases where this is beneficial, there is otherwise no good reason to pipe links solely to avoid redirects. Doing so is generally an unhelpful, time-wasting exercise that can actually be detrimental. It is almost never helpful to replace [[redirect]] with [[target|redirect]].

That is, editors should not change, for instance, [[Franklin Roosevelt]] to [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] or [[Franklin D. Roosevelt|Franklin Roosevelt]] just to "fix a redirect". However, it is perfectly acceptable to change it to [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] if for some reason it is preferred that "Franklin D. Roosevelt" actually appear in the visible text.

In our case, it wouldn't be worth the time just to change [[Catelyn Tully]] to [[Catelyn Stark]] (or [[Catelyn Stark|Catelyn Tully]]), but there's no harm in updating the link if already editing the article for other purposes. Double redirects (a redirect linking to another redirect) should be quickly corrected, however.

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I personally like the Elia Fernandez image the best. Several of Elia's images are used in other articles, so there would be some consistency. The Dreambeing image is also good, and both Elia's and DB's images use brown hair. I find Riavel's too close up on Lyanna's face, and the style of Marcos's makes her hair look black. GRRM instead often specifies that Theon and the Baratheons have black hair.

I like the Elia Fernandez image very much as well, and it originally was my first choise. User Scafloc argued that she did not look sad enough. He also mentioned that Lyanna's hair seemed to be a bit auburn in that image, but I strongly disagree, and I've checked on multiple devices to see whether it was not simply the colour-settings on my lapto which made it appear to not be the case.

Riavel's image, which is currently used, depicts Lyanna with black hair, and all the evidence we have - granted, all indirect evidence - suggests Lyanna had brown hair. Which is why I feel the image should be changed.

Marcos' image comes a bit close to using only grey colours.. I can distinguish a little bit colour, and I'd sooner call her hair brown than black in that one (the hair, sad face, and blue rose make this one my second choice).

So for me, I'd vote for Elia Fernandez' image first, and Marcos' image second.

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The ASOIAF wiki doesn't mention any policy for article titles at Help:Manual of Style. Wikipedia, the inspiration for AWOIAF, states,

Our only reliable sources are George's publications. Using asearchoficeandfire.com (which does not search appendices), I find 10 results for Catelyn Tully and 69 results for Catelyn Stark. Similarly, there are 7 results for Lysa Tully and 42 for Lysa Arryn, as well as 1 for Olenna Redwyne (used prior to her marriage) and 4 for Olenna Tyrell. Listing both families is a good idea ("Barbrey Dustin, born Barbrey Ryswell," or "Donella Hornwood is the Lady of Hornwood ... Originally from House Manderly, ...")

Updating redirects usually isn't a high priority, since George often uses multiple names for things (but articles should be titled after his primary usage). Wikipedia states,

In our case, it wouldn't be worth the time just to change [[Catelyn Tully]] to [[Catelyn Stark]] (or [[Catelyn Stark|Catelyn Tully]]), but there's no harm in updating the link if already editing the article for other purposes. Double redirects (a redirect linking to another redirect) should be quickly corrected, however.

It goes a little against my instinct, but of course, there is a point to using the name most often used as a page title, definitly, and if the user manual for the regular wiki's states it as a rule, than it seems the most logical thing to do, of course.

Copy-pasting all the info from Catelyn Tully to Catelyn Stark seems the easiers way to do it, though perhaps a mention is description of edit that the main article and redirect have been changed. That way, edit history for both remains saved, right?

Not linking to the actual article title (so, leaving all the [[Catelyn Tully]]'s instead of changing them into [[Catelyn Stark]]) sounds a bit messy to me. I've changed all [[bittersteel]]'s to [[Aegor Rivers]], all [[bloodraven]]'s to [[brynden Rivers]] etc a while back. Changing all the [[Catelyn Tully]]'s to [[Catelyn Stark]]'s, seeing as there are more than 400, is quite a lot of work, and definitly something that will be done in parts, and not, say, overnight.. But I do think that, in the end, it should be done..

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Copy-pasting all the info from Catelyn Tully to Catelyn Stark seems the easiers way to do it, though perhaps a mention is description of edit that the main article and redirect have been changed. That way, edit history for both remains saved, right?

Yep, that would be easiest.

Not linking to the actual article title (so, leaving all the [[Catelyn Tully]]'s instead of changing them into [[Catelyn Stark]]) sounds a bit messy to me. I've changed all [[bittersteel]]'s to [[Aegor Rivers]], all [[bloodraven]]'s to [[brynden Rivers]] etc a while back. Changing all the [[Catelyn Tully]]'s to [[Catelyn Stark]]'s, seeing as there are more than 400, is quite a lot of work, and definitly something that will be done in parts, and not, say, overnight.. But I do think that, in the end, it should be done..

I interpret the WP policy as saying that we shouldn't go out of our way to update the links, not that the links should never be updated at all. After all, George does call the character Catelyn Tully (just not as frequently as Catelyn Stark), so usage of Catelyn Tully within the wiki isn't wrong. Instead, a higher priority should be placed on fixing incorrect information or expanding topics, and the Catelyn links can gradually be updated along the way.

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Rhaegar Targeriens battle of the trident picture should be changed. the battle was on horse back not on foot. even GRR expressed annoyance on the incorrect depiction of the battle

You mean this image?

Seems to have been inspired by the vision Dany sees in the House of the Undying

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name....

So sink on his knees, Rhaegar would have been afoot, at least at the end of the battle.

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A few entries that may need to be revised.



Wight entry; "Dragonglass cannot stop a wight" [4- SoS, Sam III]
"He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul's heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool." -SoS, Sam III
"Sam cleared his throat. "S-sire. The dagger . . . the dragonglass only shattered when I tried to stab a wight." -SoS, Sam V

It's still unknown.
__________
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch entry; "It is claimed that there have been 998 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch, although the most complete list in the vaults comprises only 667."
I think the wording is off here, it's not that the most complete list shows 667, it's the oldest list Sam found was written when there was 667.
I'm assuming Sam was averaging the time of service for previous Lord Commanders to say when the list was written but Jon cut him off. (e.g.- average 8 years per Lord Commander, it was written almost 3000 years ago.)
So maybe, "it is said that Jon is the 998th lord commander but the oldest list Sam found only goes back to the 667th, beyond that is unknown"
"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or . . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ." FfC, Sam I/DwD Jon II.
___________
Glass candle entry; "Leo Tyrell reports that the green glass candle is burning in Marwyn's study." [prologue]

I can't find any mention of the candle in Marwyn's study being green, and later in Sam's chapter it is one of the black ones.
___________
Jaqen entry; "He is one of three prisoners found in the infamous "black cells", the dungeons reserved for only the worst criminals. The other black cells criminals, Rorge and Biter, are afraid of him.[5]" [ACoK, Arya VIII]
This isn't an error but the wording leads people to believe that Rorge and Biter were scared of Jaqen from the beggining but afaik it's only mentioned later at Harrenhal(the reference is correct). Not saying they couldn't be scared of him from when they were in the cells or the wagon but it's location in the entry makes it seem that way.

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The statue of Lyanna in the crypt under Winterfell has a garland of blue winter roses.

- Link

The chapter link gives Eddard I, but there's no mention of Lyanna's statue having a garland of roses in that chapter. It seems like the sort of thing Robert might have mentioned. Awkward. Fwiw, it seems pretty unlikely to me that her statue would include a reminder of the moment when all the smiles died.

I believe the basis for this misconception can be found in Eddard XIII, when Ned dreams of the Winterfell crypts. In that dream Lyanna's statue is wearing a garland of pale blue roses, but it is also crying tears of blood, so I don't think we should take the image literally. In fact, the description itself -- pale blue -- tells us that what Ned is seeing is not part of the statue, but the actual crown given to her by Rhaegar.

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

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A few entries that may need to be revised.

Wight entry; "Dragonglass cannot stop a wight" [4- SoS, Sam III]
"He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul's heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool." -SoS, Sam III
"Sam cleared his throat. "S-sire. The dagger . . . the dragonglass only shattered when I tried to stab a wight." -SoS, Sam V

It's still unknown.

__________
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch entry; "It is claimed that there have been 998 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch, although the most complete list in the vaults comprises only 667."
I think the wording is off here, it's not that the most complete list shows 667, it's the oldest list Sam found was written when there was 667.

I'm assuming Sam was averaging the time of service for previous Lord Commanders to say when the list was written but Jon cut him off. (e.g.- average 8 years per Lord Commander, it was written almost 3000 years ago.)
So maybe, "it is said that Jon is the 998th lord commander but the oldest list Sam found only goes back to the 667th, beyond that is unknown"
"The Others." Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or . . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ." FfC, Sam I/DwD Jon II.
___________
Glass candle entry; "Leo Tyrell reports that the green glass candle is burning in Marwyn's study." [prologue]

I can't find any mention of the candle in Marwyn's study being green, and later in Sam's chapter it is one of the black ones.

___________
Jaqen entry; "He is one of three prisoners found in the infamous "black cells", the dungeons reserved for only the worst criminals. The other black cells criminals, Rorge and Biter, are afraid of him.[5]" [ACoK, Arya VIII]

This isn't an error but the wording leads people to believe that Rorge and Biter were scared of Jaqen from the beggining but afaik it's only mentioned later at Harrenhal(the reference is correct). Not saying they couldn't be scared of him from when they were in the cells or the wagon but it's location in the entry makes it seem that way.

- Link

The chapter link gives Eddard I, but there's no mention of Lyanna's statue having a garland of roses in that chapter. It seems like the sort of thing Robert might have mentioned. Awkward. Fwiw, it seems pretty unlikely to me that her statue would include a reminder of the moment when all the smiles died.

I believe the basis for this misconception can be found in Eddard XIII, when Ned dreams of the Winterfell crypts. In that dream Lyanna's statue is wearing a garland of pale blue roses, but it is also crying tears of blood, so I don't think we should take the image literally. In fact, the description itself -- pale blue -- tells us that what Ned is seeing is not part of the statue, but the actual crown given to her by Rhaegar.

Fixed all, except for this one:

Jaqen entry; "He is one of three prisoners found in the infamous "black cells", the dungeons reserved for only the worst criminals. The other black cells criminals, Rorge and Biter, are afraid of him.[5]" [ACoK, Arya VIII]

This isn't an error but the wording leads people to believe that Rorge and Biter were scared of Jaqen from the beggining but afaik it's only mentioned later at Harrenhal(the reference is correct). Not saying they couldn't be scared of him from when they were in the cells or the wagon but it's location in the entry makes it seem that way.

As I don't know how to state it properly. Any suggestions?

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