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22 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Where is stated that Lucos Chyttering is the son of the late Lord Chyttering?

I don't think that's stated anywhere. Lucos is sixteen, and inherits the seat from the late Lord Chyttering, so I suppose that this has been assumed to be the case. Technically, he could be a cousin to the late lord Chyttering.. Or I missed something. But if I'm not mistaken, he's only mentioned by his first name in the appendices of Storm and Feast, and mentioned in the books only once, as "young Chyttering", in Storm.

 

22 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Any opinions regarding the following stuff?

1) We don't know whose seat Sevenstreams is, and that's where he was caught. However, it sounds like they had been chasing Chett ("they had caught him..."), a search which would have most likely started from Hag's Mire, upon the discovery of the dead Bessa. That doesn't mean, though, that Hag's Mire was the only place from where a search was made.

All a long way of saying that the text is not clear about why the Nayland's weren't the ones to sentence Chett.. Perhaps because he wasn't caught by Nayland men. Perhaps because he hadn't been caught near Hag's Mire. Or perhaps because the Naylands are not allowed to pass such a sentence. But I don't think the text is clear enough to say which one of the options it is supposed to be.

2) I think it's about this passage

"Go home and know your wife," Asha shot back. "Nuncle says he'll give you more of what my father gave you. Well, what was that? Gold and glory, some will say. Freedom, ever sweet. Aye, it's so, he gave us that . . . and widows too, as Lord Blacktyde will tell you. How many of you had your homes put to the torch when Robert came? How many had daughters raped and despoiled? Burnt towns and broken castles, my father gave you that. Defeat was what he gave you. Nuncle here will give you more. Not me."

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On ‎05‎.‎02‎.‎2016 at 11:26 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I don't think that's stated anywhere. Lucos is sixteen, and inherits the seat from the late Lord Chyttering, so I suppose that this has been assumed to be the case. Technically, he could be a cousin to the late lord Chyttering.. Or I missed something. But if I'm not mistaken, he's only mentioned by his first name in the appendices of Storm and Feast, and mentioned in the books only once, as "young Chyttering", in Storm.

So the page "Lord Chyttering (father of Lucos) needs to be renamed and the articles including this statement changed.

On ‎05‎.‎02‎.‎2016 at 11:26 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

2) I think it's about this passage

"Go home and know your wife," Asha shot back. "Nuncle says he'll give you more of what my father gave you. Well, what was that? Gold and glory, some will say. Freedom, ever sweet. Aye, it's so, he gave us that . . . and widows too, as Lord Blacktyde will tell you. How many of you had your homes put to the torch when Robert came? How many had daughters raped and despoiled? Burnt towns and broken castles, my father gave you that. Defeat was what he gave you. Nuncle here will give you more. Not me."

But this "Lord Blacktyde" refers to Lord Baelor, doesn't it? So we may be able to conclude that Baelor's father died during the Greyjoy Rebellion, but we don't know if he was lord. Maybe Baelor's grandfather was still alive. Which means this page has to be renamed as well.

On ‎05‎.‎02‎.‎2016 at 11:26 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

1) We don't know whose seat Sevenstreams is, and that's where he was caught. However, it sounds like they had been chasing Chett ("they had caught him..."), a search which would have most likely started from Hag's Mire, upon the discovery of the dead Bessa. That doesn't mean, though, that Hag's Mire was the only place from where a search was made.

All a long way of saying that the text is not clear about why the Nayland's weren't the ones to sentence Chett.. Perhaps because he wasn't caught by Nayland men. Perhaps because he hadn't been caught near Hag's Mire. Or perhaps because the Naylands are not allowed to pass such a sentence. But I don't think the text is clear enough to say which one of the options it is supposed to be.

So House Nayland being a knightly house is just speculation? Do you think we can be sure about them being a vassal to House Frey?

Edited by The Wondering Wolf
Typo

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2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So House Nayland being a knightly house is just speculation? Do you think we can be sure about them being a vassal to House Frey?

Ser Lucas Nayland is mentioned in TMK as coming down from Hag's Mire for the Whitewalls wedding, while Ser Raymond Nayland's origin isn't mentioned in AFFC. I haven't found mention of Naylands in either RPG guide.

While we know of confirmed knightly houses (like Clegane, Templeton, Dalt), there are some which the wiki assumes are knightly (Blanetree, Clifton, Erenford), whether within articles or templates. I suggested some possible template changes in this thread.

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3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So the page "Lord Chyttering (father of Lucos) needs to be renamend and the articled including this statement changed.

In the RPG A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying, Lucos is mentioned to have been his son. Nothing mentioned in books or app.

3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

But this "Lord Blacktyde" refers to Lord Baelor, doesn't it? So we may be able to conclude that Baelor's father died during the Greyjoy Rebellion, but we don't know if he was lord. Maybe Baelor's grandfather was still alive. Which means this page has to be renamed as well.

Yes, in that quote, Lord Blacktyde is Baelor. What I meant was, whoever wrote that passage, presumably had that quote in mind when writing it.

 

That Baelor had been taken hostage for eight years after the Greyjoy Rebellion indeed implies that he was, at the time, the heir, or perhaps already in power. Who ruled before him, however, is the question. So yeah, I think the wording on the wiki pages needs to be changed, in that regard.

 

3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So House Nayland being a knightly house is just speculation? Do you think we can be sure about them being a vassal to House Frey?

The RPG guide names Hag's Mire a swamp found in Frey lands, so if House Nayland is from Hag's Mire, they should be a vassal to the Frey's. As to them being a knightly house, I'd have no idea. It's not, as far as I am aware at the moment, specifically stated.

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Re: RPGs, SOME information in the GoO RPG is drawn from GRRM, but it's all sort of secondary canon in that it can of course be changed a bit when/if it makes it to publication a work of George's authorship (ASoIaF, Dunk and Egg, TWoIaF, Fire and Blood, etc.) But the book doesn't say anywhere what's from George or not, so ... bit shakey, unless they  are details that show up later in other sources.

The Green Ronin RPGs are, so far as I know, almost entirely made by GR's own writers with no real input from George or any other authority. They're good for what they are, but George doesn't have the time to be involved in the way he was involved with the Guardians of Order game.

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12 hours ago, Ran said:

Re: RPGs, SOME information in the GoO RPG is drawn from GRRM, but it's all sort of secondary canon in that it can of course be changed a bit when/if it makes it to publication a work of George's authorship (ASoIaF, Dunk and Egg, TWoIaF, Fire and Blood, etc.) But the book doesn't say anywhere what's from George or not, so ... bit shakey, unless they  are details that show up later in other sources.

The Green Ronin RPGs are, so far as I know, almost entirely made by GR's own writers with no real input from George or any other authority. They're good for what they are, but George doesn't have the time to be involved in the way he was involved with the Guardians of Order game.

The RPG's are currently being used to add information when the books, SSMs, and app say nothing about it. For example the page on Volantis uses the GoO RPG to state

According to semi-canon sources the freeborn citizens tattoo themselves to show prowess in battle and as a record of their exploits

as that information cannot be found (to my knowledge) in any of the other works (but, funny enough, is also stated in the Green Ronin RPG). 

 

So, would it then be ok to keep using the GoO RPG as a semi-canon source to fill gaps of knowledge where they exist, replacing them by canon sources when a canon source states the info as well? And to stop using the Green Ronin RPG as a semi-canon source, since George was, as you say, not involved in giving input?

Or should simply neither be used as source?

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Ok, the other question I asked yesterday was not clearly stated, I saw that upon reading the thread this morning, so here a (hopefully) better formulated post regarding the issue.

The World of Ice and Fire mixes up the Lannisport tourney (276 AC) and the Anniversary tourney (276 AC).

Ran, you have confirmed that the Anniversary tourney took place in King's Landing, not in Lannisport, as both locations were . However, discussions still arise concerning the following passage from The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring:

That this would be an event of unrivaled magnificence was clear from the first, for Lord Whent was offering prizes thrice as large as those given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II’s tenth year upon the Iron Throne.

The Lannisport tourney, we know, occured in 276 AC, the Anniversary tourney celebrating Aerys's ten years on the throne in 272 AC. So the bolded parts are supposed to belong together. The underlined part is a separate tourney. But who hosted the 272 AC tourney in KL is not yet clear. To me, it seems like the tourney was hosted by Aerys.. It was his city (KL), his celebration, and thus his right to host a tourney. Tywin hosting a tourney at a seat that isn't his, sounds a bit unlikely. So I'd think that the "hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister" part refers to the Lannisport tourney, not the 272 AC tourney in KL. However, there are also people who take this passage to mean that Tywin hosted both the 272 AC tourney and the 276 AC tourney.

Clarification on this would be very much appreciated.

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It's the great King's Landing tourney of 272 AC, but Tywin as Hand arranged it and paid for it.

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On 2/6/2016 at 3:25 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

To what extend can the RPG's be used as sources on the wiki? Has that ever been discussed?

I've treated the RPGs as semi-canon. They are published with GRRM's name, but the novels take precedence.

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

But should we continue to use the Green Ronin RPG?

I think it should be okay, as long as it doesn't contradict canon and the semi-canon disclaimer is used.

GRRM has often promoted Green Ronin at Not A Blog (Green Ronin Special, Now Shipping, Vote Early and Often, Battle on the Trident). He also commented, "The Green Ronin rpg is a fully licensed and approved product. Green Ronin outbid half a dozen other games companies for the rights, and paid me a substantial amount of money. All their artwork and text is personally vetted and reviewed by me (the game stats and rules I leave to them). It's hardly the same as fanfic."

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A question regarding policies concerning the use of images on the wiki.

Specifically referring to the images of Elia Fernandez. We have 21 of Elia's images on the wiki currently, with the disclaimer

This work is copyrighted, the copyright holder has granted permission for this image to be used in Wiki of Song of Ice and Fire. This permission does not extend to third parties.

Art work by Elia Fernandez, you can find other works by her at HomePage, DeviantArt and Blog

 

I was wondering, does this disclaimer mean that Elia Fernandez should be contacted for every new image that one would want to add onto the wiki?

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Nittanian,

That remark from GRRM was based on GR's first books. As I said, George is not as involved in them as he once was, and

Per Referencing and Canon, information in semi-canon sources needs to be verified as coming from George. "... origin with Martin must be an estalished fact, not assumed".

Rhaenys,

Sometimes the people who got the permission to put up the images add a quote or note to the images directly citing the permission the artist gave. If that doesn't exist for any of her images, it's probably safest to approach her about some new  image(s), and perhaps get her to confirm that she's still okay with the previous images being used.

 

 

 

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On June 5, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Ran said:

Back in May 2008, we (that's Linda and I, and George's editor Anne Groell) received from George's assistant family tree files concerning the Targaryens and Starks, for use in the course of working on the world book (remember, at the time the world book contained a Who's Who, which was the basis for the app). Some of the details in those trees changed once George worked on the World of Ice and Fire (the Stark tree expanded, mainly, and the Targaryen tree got some substantial changes as he sorted out things like the Dance of the Dragons). The program used contains stuff like date of death, location of death, etc.

In the case of Lyanna Stark, she's on that Stark tree, and there her death location is given as the tower of joy.

Again, things are always mutable until directly published in the books (and sometimes even after that point, depending). But in mid-2008, that's what George had in place.

Ran--

A quick question re: this post to @WeaselPie for clarification. I'm not sure if this is a question that's appropriate for me to ask. If I'm out of line, just tell me. :)

On the Stark tree in the files you all received, by any chance do you remember if was Jon still listed as Ned's bastard son? In other words, was the family tree similar to the ones published in the back of the novels? IE: since you received it in 2008, did it still list Bran and Rickon as "believed dead" like it does In Dance?

Thanks!

Edited by Sly Wren
Format

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FFG has a "Siege of Riverrun" card.This is currently used in the siege of Riverrun article (Daven's siege in AFFC), but should it instead be used with the Battle of the Camps article (Jaime's siege in AGOT)? From Tyrion IX:

Quote

"You said they came at night," Ser Kevan prompted.

The man gave a weary nod. "The Blackfish led the van, cutting down our sentries and clearing away the palisades for the main assault. By the time our men knew what was happening, riders were pouring over the ditch banks and galloping through the camp with swords and torches in hand. I was sleeping in the west camp, between the rivers. When we heard the fighting and saw the tents being fired, Lord Brax led us to the rafts and we tried to pole across, but the current pushed us downstream and the Tullys started flinging rocks at us with the catapults on their walls."

While the card doesn't seem to depict fighting, it shows a night situation and the fires look more like a conflagration than controlled campfires.

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@Sly Wren

The family tree that I noted is actually an electronic file for MyHeritage, and so it doesn't contain information like "believed dead". That's stuff George adds when he writes up the appendices, I suppose.

 

 

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