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23 hours ago, Vaith said:

Edit: Now I do see the mention of him being a "good and noble lord", although lord does not necessarily mean lord of his house depending on the context, and small council members may be considered honorary lords, like Varys.

Are there any cases in the history books (or in the books at all) that someone without lands is called 'lord' when his character is described?

But maybe @Ran can confirm that Ronnel Penrose was Lord of Parchments.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to a page about the ironborn civil war (& eventual Targaryen invasion) following the Burning of Harrenhal. Nor the one after the Red Kraken's death (& subsequent Lannister invasion). It would be helpful to have these created to be able to refer to, thanks.

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On 4/29/2020 at 9:01 PM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to a page about the ironborn civil war (& eventual Targaryen invasion) following the Burning of Harrenhal. Nor the one after the Red Kraken's death (& subsequent Lannister invasion). It would be helpful to have these created to be able to refer to, thanks.

I created an article for the Iron Islands succession struggle. Its still a stub, though.

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Can this Harper Voyager map of KL (https://7kingdoms.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/voyager_kingslanding-1.jpg ) considered canon?

It seems to be the only map with Street of Flour, Street of Seeds, Street of Looms, Sowbelly Row, Pigrun Alley and Shadowblack Lane, which all fit with the book description. And it correctly places Eel Alley on Visenya's Hill, whereas TLOIAF got it wrong.

Maybe @Ran would know?

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2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Ser Elyas Scales was the master-at-arms at Dragonstone at the start of the reign of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen.

Ser Benethon Scales is a knight in service to Stannis Baratheon, one of the Queen's men.

Does that mean House Scales exist ? A minor House from the Crownlands perhaps ?

Makes sense, might be a family like the Blackberrys. 

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Do we need a "court fool" article separate from "fool"? The usage of the phrase in FAB seems descriptive rather than referring to a specific Targaryen position. Moon Boy is the fool at Robert's court, Butterbumps at Mace's, etc.

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Quote

 

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole.The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. -AGOT Sansa II

When she emerged, Sansa walked on the Hound’s left, away from the burned side of his face. -ACOK Sansa III

 

Do we have other descriptions about which side is burnt? It's usually thought ACOK errs since the Hound is burnt on the left side, as said in AGOT.

But maybe Sansa was describing from her view in AGOT, so "the left side of his face" is in fact his right face! Then it will fit ACOK.

I know most of GRRM-approved arts have the Hound burnt on the left side, like Amok, John Picacio, Michael Komarck and the Dark Sword miniature. So it seems that's GRRM's take. But the comic and GOT have it the other way.

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On 7/3/2020 at 7:14 AM, zionius said:

But maybe Sansa was describing from her view in AGOT, so "the left side of his face" is in fact his right face! Then it will fit ACOK.

Yeah, that could make sense. Maybe the wiki should explain both options.

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I was thinking I'd fill some blanks by creating more pages, so I went to the "Wanted Pages" and saw that it was empty, but I know there are several redlinks on the wiki. Is the Wanted Pages hidden to users?

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1 hour ago, zionius said:

F&B paperback is released today, which fixed most issues in the wiki errata https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/i3lh2l/spoilers_main_changes_in_fire_blood_paperback/

Entries of a few characters need updating too.

@Lord Varys

 

I know. Check this out:

 

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Since you are doing some updates - wouldn't it time to remove Raymont Baratheon from the wiki, or at least give him a sort of limbo/semi-canon status? The lines about him from TWoIaF were drawn from the FaB material - and George deliberately removed him from there and he wasn't put back in for the paperback.

I'm not sure how guys deal with this kind of weird thing, but my take on things would be that derivative TWoIaF information drawn from FaB materials which didn't make it into the final version of the books including all discrepancies between the novellas and the unabridged FaB should no longer be seen as canonical.

For instance, the stuff about Aegon II decreeing that Rhaenyra was never a queen never happened, Mushroom never claimed that Daemon deflowered Queen Alicent, Daemon isn't actually known as 'the rogue prince', etc.

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Posted (edited)

Question about Lord Jon Hightower and his Handship

 

Quote

* LADY JEYNE LOTHSTON: Daughter of Lady Falena, the king's first mistress, by either Lord Lucas Lothston or the king himself Jeyne was brought to court by her mother in 178, when she was fourteen. Aegon made Lord Lothston his new Hand, and it was said (but never proved) that he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed. He soon gave Jeyne a pox he'd caught from the whores he'd been seeing after Lady Bethany's execution, and the Lothstons were then all sent from court again.

Children by Jeyne Lothston: None.

* SERENEI OF LYS (SWEET SERENEI): A Lysene beauty from an ancient but impoverished line, brought to court by Lord Jon Hightower, the new Hand Serenei was the most beautiful of Aegon's mistresses, but she was also reputed to be a sorceress. She died giving birth to the last of the king's bastard children, a girl called Shiera Seastar who became the greatest beauty in the Seven Kingdoms, beloved of both her half brothers, Bittersteel and Bloodraven, whose rivalry would ripen to hatred.

Children by Serenei: Shiera

-The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV

and

Quote

Newly wed to the Lady Falena Stokeworth, following the scandal of her relations with Prince Aegon, the future Aegon the Unworthy, Lothston soon departed court with his bride. He returned to King's Landing in Aegon's reign, serving as Hand for less than a year before Aegon again banished him from court along with his wife and daughter.

-The World of Ice and Fire - The Riverlands: House Tully

The timeline as I understand it is : Lord Lucas Lothston came to court with his family after being appointed Hand of the King by Aegon IV in 178 AC. His tenure as Hand was "less than a year" long and the new Hand after him was Lord Jon Hightower.

Question: Is it fair to assume Lord Jon Hightower was appointed Hand of the King in late 178 AC/early 179 AC ?
Bonus Question: Since Tywin was the youngest ever to be appointed as Hand of the King at the age of twenty in 262 AC, that would place Jon's birth at the latest in 158 AC right ? (A posible son or grandson of Lyonel Hightower and Samantha Tarly)

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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We have Jon as a grandson of Lyonel-Sam in the MUSH, so I guess the chance is not that bad that he will turn out to be just that.

And, yes, if things are going to stay consistent then any Hand must be older than Tywin when he first takes office - meaning both Viserys II and Alyn Velaryon (assuming he ever serves as Hand) will have to wait some time before serving Aegon III in that capacity.

However, since TWoIaF is fairly incomplete/undetailed in content we cannot really say Jon being 'the new Hand' means he succeeded Lucas Lothston. He could also have succeeded another short-lived Hand we don't know anything about so far, just as there were unseen Hands of Maegor's serving before Harroway and Celtigar.

We also have no clue who Lucas Lothston succeeded as Hand.

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Posted (edited)

@Lord Varys I didn't thought of looking into the MUSH but it's cool to know the game align with the book canon.


You intrigued me so I used the wayback machine for the entry of House Hightower and turns out the information of Lyonel having 6 children with his paramour then wife Samantha Tarly was edited in late June 2013 (see here) but we didn't find that out until Fire & Blood was published in November 2018. I'm guessing it comes from some information GRRM gave to @Ran when they were working on The World of Ice and Fire, but I could be wrong.
Note: Bethany and Martyn Hightower are mentioned back in 2013 but not Lyonel's last book canon sibling, Garmund Hightower who ends up marrying Rhaena Targaryen.


As for Alyn and Viserys, I wouldn't worry too much. Alyn is 21 when F&B Part 1 ends in 136 AC and The World of Ice and Fire tells us Viserys served as Hand for Aegon III in the "last years" of his reign. I don't think Viserys will be appointed Hand early in F&B Part 2, we most likely will have 2 or 3 Hands before Viserys is appointed. In any case, GRRM has to wait until 143 AC at the earliest to stay coherent with Tywin's appointement.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

You intrigued me so I used the wayback machine for the entry of House Hightower and turns out the information of Lyonel having 6 children with his paramour then wife Samantha Tarly was edited in late June 2013 (see here) but we didn't find that out until Fire & Blood was published in November 2018.

Elio had revealed that Lyonel, Sam and their children are canon even before F&B was published.

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I'm guessing it comes from some information GRRM gave to @Ran when they were working on The World of Ice and Fire, but I could be wrong.

GRRM wrote the whole regnancy stuff for the Worldbook, so Elio and Linda knew about all of that years before we did.

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I found an interesting line from The World of Ice & Fire that may help to resolve the relation between Loren the Last and Lord Lyman Lannister.

Quote

"Once Loren the Last gave up his crown, the Lannisters were reduced to lords. ... It was not until a generation later, when Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena sought refuge from King Maegor the Cruel, that the Lannisters once again began to make a greater mark on the realm.

This indicates that Lyman was a son of Loren the Last. This seems to be in-line with Tyrion's statement that Loren did not have children until after Aegon's Conquest. As for Loren's eldest son and heir that wed a Redwyne, perhaps Lyman is a second son or remarried to Jocasta Tarbeck.

We can probably work in a note about this in Loren's and Lyman's Family section on the wiki.

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