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Due to its importance in the narrative, I split off "Great Council of Harrenhal" into its own page - it was inconvenient to deal with it in a long list of all Great Councils.  In many ways, it was THE Great Council (well, that and Aegon V's):


An added reason was that the House of the Dragon casting announcement for Viserys I mentioned the "Great Council of Harrenhal" by name, so we'll probably see this in an upcoming TV show.  Anticipating that noobs will be googling for this, "Great Council of Harrenhal" is likely to catch more search results (as an "access point") than "Great Council of 101 AC".

I also updated the text a little, and rearranged the list to put Viserys and Laenor at the top of the table grid (I don't know why Daemon was at the top before it seemed random).  

....also I made a note that it's entirely possible that the unnamed fourtheenth candidate may have been Rhaella (she was probably still alive....though the fact that she was a Septa long past child bearing years would also explain why she gets zero mention, she'd have been rejected out of hand).  

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On 12/7/2020 at 1:54 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

As I have already argued in the Discord chat, the text does not state that Daemon's and Saera's claims were considered by the Great Council, so the wiki should not list them in the table of claimants. 

Those were already there I didn't add those, though I agree with including them.

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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On 12/7/2020 at 5:44 PM, The Dragon Demands said:


It was right to remove the speculation that the 14th "Candidate" at the Great Council of Harrenhal was quite probably Rhaella Targaryen.

The guideline for the wiki states that information should be provided objectively. Which means no theories or other speculation.

Which you know :)

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On 12/8/2020 at 10:56 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

I think the Battle of Rook's Rest should be changed to the Siege of Rook's Rest. Also, I think the pages on the Fall of Stokeworth and Rosby should be removed now that we know no such battles actually took place.

GRRM does write that "the dragons met violently a thousand feet above the field of battle". Alternatively, how about "taking of Rook's Rest"? GRRM writes "... Prince Aemond and Ser Criston Cole took Rook's Rest and puts its garrison to death", and later about Lord Mooton "retaking the castle".

That makes sense for Rosby and Stokeworth since they had already switched sides. "Ser Criston marched on Rosby and Stokeworth, whose lords had only recently repented of their allegiance to the queen, commanding them to prove their loyalty by adding their power to his own. Thus augmented, Cole's host advanced upon the walled harbor town of Duskendale ..."

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On 9/21/2020 at 8:13 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

The following edits need to be made:

1) Ser Titus Peake and Ser Gyles Belgrave need to be added to the list of Greens

2) Ser Roger Corne should be removed from the Green Reachermen section (since he's already listed under "defectors" and was probably from the Crownlands)

3) The Red Fork should list the Lannisters as having 1K knights and 7K crossbowmen + men-at-arms, which means Lords Piper and Vance had less than that and that the Lannisters had less than 8K at Acorn Hall as well as the Fishfeed

4) Depending on how many casualties Borros took subduing KL as well as the rest of the Crownlands the Stormlands' strength at the Kingsroad should read "less than 4K foot and 600 knights"

5) In the lead-up to First Tumbleton Munkun's account states that the Hightower army was 20K strong and that a tenth of that (2K) were knights 

6) F & B also revealed, if I recall correctly, that the Greens marched out of KL with around 500+ men (500 household knights and an unknown number of sellswords if my memory serves) but after adding the strength of Rosby as well as Stokeworth and sacking Duskendale the Greens' strength at Rook's Rest was roughly 4K


On 9/21/2020 at 8:46 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

7) There was a battle three days after Acorn Hall as well as a short, sharp battle at the Gods Eye between Ser Criston Cole's vanguard and Houses Wode, Roote, and Darry, the latter group's leader being Ser Oswald Wode

8) The Sack of Lannisport, the Capture of Kayce, and the Fall of Fair Isle should maybe get their own pages

9) Harwin and Lyonel Strong should be added to the list of Blacks.

Edited by The Grey Wolf
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3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

That still leaves everything else I posted but fair enough.

Sure (although I do not think it is necessary to make a page for a short battle that is covered by one sentence in the books, others might agree with you, though). Since I am no native speaker, I do not feel confident enough to do major edits on the wiki, so I usually just point out errors or uncertainties in this thread.

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@The Grey Wolf
The Greens and blacks are fixed (Roger Corne, Titus Peake, Harwin Strong and Gyles Belgrave). I didn't put Lyonel Strong as a blacks as I feel we don't have enough information on him; we don't know what his interactions with Alicent Hightower, Otto Hightower, Aegon the Elder, and Rhaenyra were like. We only know he didn't like Daemon as he adviced Viserys I to excecute him after he allegedly took Rhaenyra's maidenhead.

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On 12/11/2020 at 5:33 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

But where is the source for it?

For Saera, I interpret the text as possibly including her (but I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps I am wrong). For Daemon, not so much.

TWOIAF states only that there were 9 lesser claiments, and 2 finalists:

At this council, nine lesser claimants were heard and dismissed, leaving only two primary claimants to the throne: Laenor Velaryon, son of Princess Rhaenys—who was the eldest daughter of Jaehaerys's eldest son, Aemon—and Prince Viserys, eldest son of Baelon the Brave and Princess Alyssa.


Fire and Blood provides more info, and states as follows:

No fewer than fourteen claims were duly examined and considered by the lords assembled. From Essos came three rival competitors, grandsons of King Jaehaerys through his daughter Saera, each sired by a different father. One was said to be the very image of his grandsire in his youth. Another, a bastard born to a triarch of old Volantis, arrived with bags of gold and a dwarf elephant. The lavish gifts he distributed amongst the poorer lords undoubtedly helped his claim. The elephant proved less useful. (Princess Saera herself was still alive and well in Volantis, and only thirty-four years of age; her own claim was clearly superior to those of any of her bastard sons, but she did not choose to press it. "I have my own kingdom here," she said, when asked if she meant to return to Westeros.) Another contestant produced sheafs of parchment that demonstrated his descent from Gaemon the Glorious, the greatest of the Targaryen Lords of Dragonstone before the Conquest, by way of a younger daughter and the lord she had married, and on for seven further generations. There was as well a strapping red-haired man-at-arms who claimed to be a bastard son of Maegor the Cruel. By way of proof he brought his mother, an aged innkeep’s daughter who said that she had once been raped by Maegor. (The lords were prepared to believe the fact of rape, but not that the act had gotten her with child.)

The lords "examined and considered" fourteen claims. That does not necessarily mean that fourteen claims were presented. They were discusses. The paragraph identified Saera's three bastard sons, a descendant of Gaemon the Glorious, and a "bastard of Maegor".  That's five.

The Great Council deliberated for thirteen days. The tenuous claims of nine lesser competitors were considered and discarded (one such, a hedge knight who put himself forward as a natural son of King Jaehaerys himself, was seized and imprisoned when the king exposed him as a liar). Archmaester Vaegon was ruled out on account of his vows and Princess Rhaenys and her daughter on account of their sex, leaving the two claimants with the most support: Viserys Targaryen, eldest son of Prince Baelon and Princess Alyssa, and Laenor Velaryon, the son of Princess Rhaenys and grandson of Prince Aemon. Viserys was the Old King's grandson, Laenor his great-grandson. The principle of primogeniture favored Laenor, the principle of proximity Viserys. Viserys had also been the last Targaryen to ride Balerion ... though after the death of the Black Dread in 94 AC he never mounted another dragon, whereas the boy Laenor had yet to take his first flight upon his young dragon, a splendid grey-and-white beast he named Seasmoke.

The following paragraph tells us that a hedge knight , Archmaester Vaegon, Rhaenys, Laena, Laenor, and Viserys were further discussed. That is the two "finalists" and four other, 'lesser' claims. Nine lesser claims in total, leaving four unaccounted for.

However, the text does state that Saera's claim was 'clearly superior' to those of her three sons. The text states that she choose not to press her claim, but that does not mean her claim could not have been discussed, as the only parent of royal blood of three of the claimants. The text is vague, IMHO, about whether or not she was included in the count. At most, I think, we can include a sentence stating that it is unclear from Gyldan's account if Saera's own claim was discussed by the lords or not.

But no part of the text suggests that Daemon's claim was ever considered, especially not since he was a younger brother, and according to the laws of inheritance, the elder brother is customarily the first to inherit.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen
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There is indeed a chance that Saera's claim as the one from which the claim of her sons was derived was discussed - after all, the three boys or the people speaking for them would have first to establish on what grounds they were claiming the Iron Throne, meaning they had to establish they were the children of Princess Saera - but that's not enough to list Saera as a claimant in the wiki - unless you were to include a hypothetical 'who were the claimants we don't know by name' section.

Daemon's claim was indeed never discussed.

As for Lyonel Strong - he is never indicated as a Black. His son, Harwin, was 'the foremost of the Blacks', while he was Rhaenyra's companion, indicating that Lyonel had nothing to do with that. He would have been a man of the king, I guess. He wouldn't have been part of faction led by his own son. If Lyonel had been a Black he would have run the faction, not Harwin.

Daemon only became a Black after his marriage to Rhaenyra. Prior to that, he belonged to no faction but his own ... which consisted only of him, I guess.

For what it's worth, if the Great Council of 101 AC gets it own page, it should be called 'the Great Council of 101 AC' because, in-universe, that's the name it is most often referenced. It took place at Harrenhal, and that is significant, but the councils are not differentiated by the places where the lords convened. We have another Great Council at KL in 233 AC, and then informal Great Council of 136 AC also at KL - although we should not count that as a proper Great Council because it wasn't.

The fact that TWoIaF has it as a Great Council seems to be due to simplification in the editing process.

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@The Wondering Wolf

I understand. I'm not comfortable making edits either so I just limit myself to this thread.

@Thomaerys Velaryon

Any thoughts on the army numbers and additional battles I posted about? (Speaking of which, Houses Rosby and Stokeworth should be listed as present on the Greens side at Duskendale as well as Rook's Rest if they aren't already.)



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On 12/14/2020 at 3:41 PM, The Grey Wolf said:


GRRM also describes Criston laying siege to Rook's Rest, with the Greens storming the castle after Rhaenys's death.

F&B describes Criston's siege, of course, but I didn't see GRRM specifically using "siege" or "besiege" in that section of prose. Since he hasn't given it a formal name, I would recommend basing the article's title on phrasing he uses (battle or taking). Additionally, TWOIAF has "she sent Meleys flying up to face them. Only Vhagar and Aemond came out of that battle unscathed" and "both Aegon II and Sunfyre were gravely injured at Rook's Rest in the battle with Rhaenys and Meleys".

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