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2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Similarly, does Gyldayn give a name for the succession crisis in the Vale after Lady Jeyne Arryn's death (134-136 AC) ?

I found two mentions of war and a phrase mentioning fighting. Maybe "fighting in the Vale of Arryn" or "Joffrey Arryn's war"?

Quote

With [Corwyn's] death, the flames of war sprang up anew across the Vale of Arryn.

At the Bloody Gate, the entrance to the Vale, the survivors found food, warmth, and welcome...but Ser Joffrey Arryn, the Knight of the Bloody Gate and Lady Jeyne Arryn's chosen successor, saw at once that the crossing had left Blackwood's men unfit for battle. Far from being a help to him in his war, they would be a burden.

Even as the fighting in the Vale of Arryn continued, the promise of the Lysene Spring suffered another grievous blow hundreds of leagues to the south...

 

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@The Wondering Wolf brings out a good point that while we should respect what Gyldayn writes in Fire & Blood, we should also remain practical in our title naming and choose a title that will resonate for with people when they search for this event in the wiki.

Hence I propose: "Succession struggle following Dalton Greyjoy's death" and "Joffrey Arryn's ascension war".

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Hence I propose: "Succession struggle following Dalton Greyjoy's death" and "Joffrey Arryn's ascension war".

I still don't think people will search for these articles, they will get there only by links on other pages, and I can think of no title which would change that. So short and clear is a good approach, thus I second these proposals. You can still use Gyldayn's wording for the intro. 

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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I still think we should defer to GRRM's phrasing for titles whenever possible if he hasn't given us a proper name. Twice Gyldayn uses "struggle for power" to reference the aftermath of Dalton's death, and GRRM hasn't used that phrase for any other event from what I can find.

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A struggle for power was inevitable, a truth the ironborn captains saw well as they raced back toward their isles.

Quote

In the Iron Islands, a savage struggle for power followed upon the death of the Red Kraken.

"Struggle for power following Dalton Greyjoy's death" would be more faithful to GRRM's phrasing, at least.

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I'd go with the Arryn succession war for the struggle after the death of Lady Jeyne.

Somebody should remove the rather ridiculous claim from Cregan Stark's entry that Serena Stark was his heir after Rickon Stark died. There is no textual evidence for this, not to mention that Serena was the younger of the two daughters of Rickon.

And if I had to be then I'd say that Cregan Stark named his son Jonnel his heir, not one of his granddaughters. But we have to wait and see how this turns out.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd go with the Arryn succession war for the struggle after the death of Lady Jeyne.

Well we've got two options, not just for these but in general:
 

  • "Iron Islands / Vale Succession War of 131AC"
  • Iron Islands/Vale Succession War after the death of Dalton Greyjoy/Jeyne Arryn"

(and should we go with "Vale" or "Arryn"? (Greyjoy vs Iron Islands)

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In the absence of a specific name in the books we should go for as short and unambiguous title as possible, without adding too many details. I'd say the region and the year is plenty for disambiguating the various events. More precise background information can be added in the first few sentences of the article.

12 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Well we've got two options, not just for these but in general:
 

  • "Iron Islands / Vale Succession War of 131AC"
  • Iron Islands/Vale Succession War after the death of Dalton Greyjoy/Jeyne Arryn"

(and should we go with "Vale" or "Arryn"? (Greyjoy vs Iron Islands)

I like the "X succession/civil war of Y AC" that you're suggesting. I guess I'd go for Greyjoy/Arryn if all factions are from the same house, and Iron Islands/Vale if the factions are led by different houses.

 

 

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On 5/27/2021 at 8:08 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@The Wondering Wolf brings out a good point that while we should respect what Gyldayn writes in Fire & Blood, we should also remain practical in our title naming and choose a title that will resonate for with people when they search for this event in the wiki.

Hence I propose: "Succession struggle following Dalton Greyjoy's death" and "Joffrey Arryn's ascension war".

Thomaerys has the right of it. We want the least cumbersome title. One that leaves no room for ambiguity, while staying as faithful as possible to Gyldayn's wording.

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Well the question is which do we consider more cumbersome; "Succession Conflict following Dalton Greyjoy's Death" or "Iron Islands Succession Conflict of 131 AC"?

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My suggestion would again be "struggle for power after Dalton Greyjoy's death", since "struggle for power" is used twice by GRRM for the article's subject matter.

Additionally,

Quote

Across the width of Westeros, another struggle for succession broke out late in the year 134, when Lady Jeyne Arryn, the Maiden of the Vale, died at Gulltown of a cold that had settled in her chest. (The Lysene Spring and the End of Regency)

The Vale article could thus be called "struggle for succession after Jeyne Arryn's death". Another alternative for the Iron Islands article could be "struggle for succession after Dalton Greyjoy's death" (since GRRM has used "struggle" three times for that topic). 

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Posted (edited)

Greyjoy Succession Struggle (131 134 AC) and Arryn Succession Struggle (134 AC) seem to me to be the most concise way to put the above two suggestions.

Edited by Ran

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ran said:

Greyjoy Succession Struggle (131 AC) and Arryn Succession Struggle (134 AC) seem to me to be the most concise way to put the above two suggestions.

These titles are both concise and faithful to the wording. Note the first should also be 134 AC though.

There is an error on the 134 AC page as it states that Dagon Greyjoy died and links to his page instead of Dalton. On that note, Ran, I have applied for a wiki account but have not received an approval email yet.

Edit: I have now corrected the 134 AC page.

Edited by Corvus Black

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Posted (edited)

Whatever the title, I quickly put together a rough draft page for the Arryn succession war, just to get the ball rolling.

Any improvements appreciated:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arryn_Succession_Struggle_(134_AC)

....I think it should be called "Arryn Succession War" on the grounds that the chapter refers to it as a "war":

"With his death, the flames of war sprang up anew across the Vale of Arryn."

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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'Succession struggle' or 'succession war' are the proper terms for succession struggles/wars.

I think for the Iron Islands situation we can go with a succession struggle since that didn't seem to have been a proper civil war ... and things are even more complicated because the entire thing also includes what one could call 'Lady Johanna's Vengeance' or 'the Sea Lion's Invasion', i.e. the Lannister invasion of the Iron Islands.

The Vale situation I'd call a succession war considering the Iron Throne was forced to intervene twice and thousands of men had to bloody themselves before the matter was decided.

I'd also go with 'Arryn succession war' here because I'd reserve the term 'Vale succession war' or 'succession war in the Vale' for hypothetical succession wars in the Vale in the pre-Targaryen era which we might in the future hear about.

'struggle for power' sounds very weird to me, and is clearly not intended by George as a proper name for the event. Although I'd say that it is the only sort of given name we get for the event in the books.

And as a side note, it would not surprise me if the Blackfyre Rebellions would all get proper (and alternative) names in the future. After all, the four Dornish Wars we got in FaB all had proper names that went beyond Second or Third Dornish War.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

think it should be called "Arryn Succession War" on the grounds that the chapter refers to it as a "war"

Also fine. I was just saying that the House Succession Noun (Date) approach seemed the best way to go forward, as it's as concise as you can get in the instances where no formal historical name has been offered. This way, any other succession conflict we learn of can be identified by date without having to come up with unique names each and every time GRRM doesn't provide us one.

ETA: On further consideration, it may actually be better to just stick to "Struggle" or, alternatively, "Conflict" for these cases, including the Arryn war. This would allow us to group all such conflicts, regardless of the scale, together. I mean, the Greyjoy succession was a bloody mess that was clearly something of a civil war, but the term isn't directly used. OTOH, there are definitely conflicts that don't necessarily rise to the level of war that could fit under this. 

Edited by Ran

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Side note: I'm not really sure about the rules on adding fanart to the wiki (or which fanart), but we don't have any images for Jeyne Arryn, and this fanart of Jeyne and her companion Jessamyn Redfort is really good; it's based on a pose from a classical painting: https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/621216778641637377/jeyne-arryn-and-her-dear-companion-jessamyn

Can we use it?

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@The Dragon Demands I don't know but seeing a brown haired Jeyne Arryn makes me wonder: do we have a classic look for the Arryns ? Do they even have one ?

Because Harrold Hardyng (blue eyes, blond hair, and aquiline nose) apparently looks like a young Jon Arryn, and Robert Arryn has brown hair.

The aquiline nose works well with the Arryn falcon but I don't know if I prefer blond hair over brown or the other way around.

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3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@The Dragon Demands I don't know but seeing a brown haired Jeyne Arryn makes me wonder: do we have a classic look for the Arryns ? Do they even have one ?

Because Harrold Hardyng (blue eyes, blond hair, and aquiline nose) apparently looks like a young Jon Arryn, and Robert Arryn has brown hair.

The aquiline nose works well with the Arryn falcon but I don't know if I prefer blond hair over brown or the other way around.

The Arryns are one of the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility as per the appendix of AGoT which, in turn, implies that they are fair-haired/blond because that's the Andal look.

Harrold Hardyng seems to look like Jon Arryn who, in turn, likely looked like a prototypical Arryn. To make sense of this we should assume that the traditional Arryn look was that of a fair-haired, blue-eyed guy. I'd also expect that they maintained those looks by heavily intermarrying with their own kin like the Lannisters did ... which is tentatively indicated by one of Jon's wives being an Arryn herself. I also would view the historical/mythological Alyssa Arryn as a born Arryn rather than a woman from another house who married into House Arryn.

That said - this doesn't have to be the case for all the Arryns. Lord Rodrik Arryn didn't look that impressive despite the fact that we don't know his coloring ... and his line seems to have died out with Jeyne and Arnold, so chances aren't that bad that Rodrik and Aemma did have brown hair but most other Arryns did not.

If I were to draw fan art I'd make all the Arryns blond, though, because that's the default family look. We can also expect that there were black-haired and red-haired and blond Starks in the past - but any take on a historical Stark we have no individual description of would go with the Stark family looks as a default (i.e. Ned, Arya, and Jon).

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

so chances aren't that bad that Rodrik and Aemma did have brown hair but most other Arryns did not.

When Targaryen have kids with brown/black haired spouses their children almost always take after the spouse coloring (Maekar is the exception as he has all the Targaryen looks despite having a Martell mother). So for Aemma I prefer her to be blond over brown which better explains why Rhaenyra maintain all the Targaryen looks of Viserys I. Plus Aemma's mother was Targaryen herself so at the very least Aemma should have a mix of brown and silver (like Valarr).

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