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I don't really know what to tell you beyond what's already been said: the information is in the World of Ice and Fire app, which as we've noted includes information from GRRM and is an acceptable source to replace the Campaign Guide on this detail, and nothing in the text of ASoS or ADwD contradicts it other than your suppositions about how long Robert was in that or any other brothel in Stoney Sept.

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Just now, Ran said:

I don't really know what to tell you beyond what's already been said: the information is in the World of Ice and Fire app, which as we've noted includes information from GRRM and is an acceptable source to replace the Campaign Guide on this detail, and nothing in the text of ASoS or ADwD contradicts it other than your suppositions about how long Robert was in that or any other brothel in Stoney Sept.

This is the second time you've implied there are multiple brothels in Stoney Sept. I ask again: Have you got a source for that?

I'm really not sure what the issue is. I'm not arguing against what TWOIAF says. It seems to me that you are contradicting it with your own suppositions, not me. I have provided a book quote - and remember, the books are the "supreme canon", even over what TWOIAF says - that Robert hid in the brothel last. You are speculating on the time he spent in a brothel and what he did in that brothel. Do either the books or TWOIAF say he did what Bella says he did?

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Posted (edited)

Jon Connington does not know where Robert was the whole time, he just assumes Robert was moved from place to place under his nose because of his inaptitude to find him. Kevan Lannister describes young Jon as proud and seeking glory. Jon was furious that he failed to find Robert and convince himself the smallfolk must have been involved to justify the failure that really hurt his pride.

Middle-aged Jon learned his lesson after his talk with Myles Toyne, he won't do the same mistake again in the future.. but I expect this new more Tywin-like Jon will do other mistakes instead.

As far as Stoney Sept having one or several brothels. Come on, we are talking about a walled town not an isolate village. Stoney Sept was chosen as a rally point by Aegon I for his armies before marching to the Field of Fire and there was a chapter of the Faith Militant with hundreds of Warrior Sons in the town. Clearly Stoney Sept is a big town, do you really think the Peach is the only brothel ?

Plus Jon says Robert hid in "a brothel" not "the brothel".

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Snip.

Pure speculation on your part. Is speculation now fact? 

Using "a" instead of "the"? Am I to go through the books and use that as the basis for things now? A lot of wiki pages would change if that is how we did things.

Edited by Corvus Black

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Posted (edited)

To be honest, the only speculation is that the Peach is the only brothel in Stoney Sept. It is not explicitly said. Not by anyone that I can recall. I don't know why it seems so important that it be so.

Again, the AWoIaF app states explicitly that Bella is Robert's daughter, and the app features a deal of new information from GRRM. Which means her story is true, and which means that however long Robert was in the brothel, it was long enough to do the deed and get her. Nothing in the quoted texts contest that Robert could have decided to deal with his "I'm being hunted" stress by having a quickie with a willing prostitute. Or whatever.

If there are other areas in the wiki where people have made assumptions about things like a brothel being the only example of something in a specific place without it being explicitly said, yes, we should consider correcting those texts.

Edited by Ran

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Ran said:

To be honest, the only speculation is that the Peach is the only brothel in Stoney Sept. It is not explicitly said. Not by anyone that I can recall. I don't know why it seems so important that it be so.

We know that the brothel in Stoney Sept is called the Peach. No other brothel is mentioned anywhere, as you confirm, so I am confused as to why we would then assume that there are two or more brothels. The fact there are multiple brothels only seems to be important to you and Thomaerys, and is the basis for your argument so I can see why you would want things to side with your view. This view, however, should be supported by evidence.

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

Again, the AWoIaF app states explicitly that Bella is Robert's daughter, and the app features a deal of new information from GRRM. Which means her story is true, and which means that however long Robert was in the brothel, it was long enough to do the deed and get her. Nothing in the quoted texts contest that Robert could have decided to deal with his "I'm being hunted" stress by having a quickie with a willing prostitute. Or whatever.

Oh, you mean AWOIAF, not TWOIAF. The case is even more tentative then. The book appendices do not state that Bella is Robert's bastard. They do with his other bastards. Did GRRM explicitly state to you that Bella is his bastard or is that speculation on your part that made it into the app? I know the app says she has blue eyes, which notably wasn't present in ASOS. Arya noted her hair colour as the only thing connecting her to Robert other than her "story". If Bella had blue eyes that would have been another connection to Robert. That her eyes being blue is not mentioned is significant in its absence from the text.

As for Bella's "story", she says that Robert slept with the entire brothel, which we know can't be true based on the timeline. If one part of her "story" is false, I'm not sure why we would assume other parts are true.

Edited by Corvus Black

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21 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@The Dragon Demands I don't know but seeing a brown haired Jeyne Arryn makes me wonder: do we have a classic look for the Arryns ? Do they even have one ?

Because Harrold Hardyng (blue eyes, blond hair, and aquiline nose) apparently looks like a young Jon Arryn, and Robert Arryn has brown hair.

The aquiline nose works well with the Arryn falcon but I don't know if I prefer blond hair over brown or the other way around.

It would actually make sense if they were honey-blonde Andals, now that you mention it. But it's the only fanart I could find that had Jeyne and Jessamyn...being pride month and all.

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10 hours ago, Ran said:

If an artist gives permission to use their work on the site, it's cool to use it.

Well I sent the question via Tumblr messenger, let's see if they respond....

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14 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

It would actually make sense if they were honey-blonde Andals, now that you mention it. But it's the only fanart I could find that had Jeyne and Jessamyn...being pride month and all.

While we don't have any clear haircolor for the Arryns, there is wee Robert Arryn being brown-haired. As no one remarks on it being unusual -- it's not his mother's auburn -- it must seem reasonable to folks that it can come from a pairing of Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully.

Personally, I'm all for having images of characters when permitted by artists and so long as they aren't wildly out of line with what we know of the characters. 

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17 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

It would actually make sense if they were honey-blonde Andals, now that you mention it. But it's the only fanart I could find that had Jeyne and Jessamyn...being pride month and all.

Yes I understand, I was just wondering that's all. We don't have any hair color description for House Redfort either (except for Horton's grey hair due to his age) but red hair is probably a good guess.

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( Jeyne Arryn is....basically the only House of the Dragon LGBTQ character who isn't going to die in Season 1, so I hope she gets a decent amount of focus in that show, rather than D&D's penchant for killing off or simply leaving out minority characters)

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On 6/3/2021 at 5:48 PM, Corvus Black said:

His knights went house to house, smashed in every door, peered into every cellar. He had even sent men crawling through the sewers, yet somehow Robert still eluded him. The townsfolk were hiding him. They moved him from one secret bolt-hole to the next, always one step ahead of the king's men. The whole town was a nest of traitors. At the end they had the usurper hidden in a brothel. 

This part. It's quite clear he didn't spend a significant amount of time anywhere, and that the brothel was the final hiding spot. It's also quite clear that Jon's men were searching the town thoroughly. Note how they "went house to house, smashed in every door, peered into every cellar. He had even sent men crawling through the sewers".

 

Actually Robert was already in Stoney Sept for some time before the battle because he was having his wounds tended to and Robert was well known to like women, so women would most likely have been provided to him and it is stated that Bella's mother was Robert favorite whore in order to become a favorite he would have had to spend more then just a few hours with her. I think its they idea that Bella was conceived during the battle that is suspect not that she was conceived by Robert.

Hell he may have chosen the Peach as his hiding place because he knew it from the time he spent there before the battle.

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On 6/5/2021 at 5:04 PM, direpupy said:

Actually Robert was already in Stoney Sept for some time before the battle because he was having his wounds tended to and Robert was well known to like women, so women would most likely have been provided to him and it is stated that Bella's mother was Robert favorite whore in order to become a favorite he would have had to spend more then just a few hours with her. I think its they idea that Bella was conceived during the battle that is suspect not that she was conceived by Robert.

Hell he may have chosen the Peach as his hiding place because he knew it from the time he spent there before the battle.

Robert wasn't known for his whoring during those days, and the war was started - and fought for - because Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed at sword point.

To say that, in these circumstances, Riverlanders would willingly provide Robert with whores is outlandish and nonsensical. Whoring during the war would lose him support, especially in other kingdoms, not gain him support.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

Robert wasn't known for his whoring during those days, and the war was started - and fought for - because Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed at sword point.

To say that, in these circumstances, Riverlanders would willingly provide Robert with whores is outlandish and nonsensical. Whoring during the war would lose him support, especially in other kingdoms, not gain him support.

Robert already had more then one bastard at this point, and even Lyanna herself made a remark to Ned that she did not think Robert would be a loyal husband so it was no big secret or something. Also the townsfolk would care little and less what big Lord's are up to so if he asked for a woman they would have provided one.

There is also Catelyn who remarked that she did not mind Ned having a bastard, but only minded that he brought the bastard home with him. She even says that she understands that as a man he has certain needs and that away from her he is free to find fulfillment of them as he pleases. 

So a Lord wanting a woman and asking for one  is actually something that people would not bat an eyelash at.

Edited by direpupy

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23 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Robert already had more then one bastard at this point, and even Lyanna herself made a remark to Ned that she did not think Robert would be a loyal husband so it was no big secret or something. Also the townsfolk would care little and less what big Lord's are up to so if he asked for a woman they would have provided one.

That's just flat out not true. He had one bastard at the time: Mya Stone. Who he fathered at a time when he was not betrothed to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna also said that around the time she was first betrothed to Robert, and he in fact did stay loyal to her after that. We have nothing further from Lyanna to indicate she still felt that way, and at Harrenhal they were on friendly terms.

Again, the war is being fought in Lyanna's name, and these are Riverlanders, not Stormlanders or Valemen.

29 minutes ago, direpupy said:

There is also Catelyn who remarked that she did not mind Ned having a bastard, but only minded that he brought the bastard home with him. She even says that she understands that as a man he has certain needs and that away from her he is free to find fulfillment of them as he pleases. 

So a Lord wanting a woman and asking for one  is actually something that people would not bat an eyelash at.

Ned is not Robert so this is a false equivalence.   

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User Igra prestola once uploaded some images of a few locations:

Quote

The Deepwood picture has no artist listed, and the wolfswood does not appear to be visible in the image. 

The Three Sisters picture has no artist listed, and appears to depict a mountainous, forested setting.

The Runestone and Lannisport pictures have a krassenka mentioned in the file name.

I found a blog page at https://krassenka.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ with several fantasy pictures (included the aforementioned pictures associated with the Three Sisters, Runestone, and Lannisport), but none are attributed to artists. One of the pictures shown there is a depiction of the Shadow Tower by Franz Miklis, and another is a screenshot of the Eyrie from s1e5 of Game of Thrones. Any objections to the removal of these four images, since they are by unknown artists and do not seem to actually depict ASOIAF content?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

That's just flat out not true. He had one bastard at the time: Mya Stone. Who he fathered at a time when he was not betrothed to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna also said that around the time she was first betrothed to Robert, and he in fact did stay loyal to her after that. We have nothing further from Lyanna to indicate she still felt that way, and at Harrenhal they were on friendly terms.

Again, the war is being fought in Lyanna's name, and these are Riverlanders, not Stormlanders or Valemen.

Ned is not Robert so this is a false equivalence.   

Mya is they only one he had at that time we know the name off but he had more.

And the Catelyn example is not about Ned or his honor or what he is like, its about how people view lords for which it is a good example. Cat at the time she thought this did not know Ned beyond the few days they spend together after getting married and thus aplied the general conception of lords to him.

Edited by direpupy

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I have a question concerning the Tarlys around the Dance of the Dragons. We have two lords (Alan Tarly and Donald Tarly) but we don't know their relation. Donald is only mentioned once :

Quote

Lady Samantha was the daughter of Lord Donald Tarly of Horn Hill and Lady Jeyne Rowan of Goldengrove, both houses that had taken up arms for the queen during the Dance.

Fire & Blood, Aftermath - The Hour of the Wolf

Donald's wiki article states that he ruled during the reign of King Viserys I but this quote doesn't established that fact. The past tenses is used in the entire book as it is an historical book, not to say that Donald is deceased by the end of the Dance (tough it is possible).

We know Alan ruled House Tarly during the first part of the Dance of the Dragons and was captured in the Battle of the Honeywine. We don't hear about him after that point. If we go by Blood of Dragons information (not canon), Alan died in captivity in 130 AC. In that scenario, it is possible for Donald to ruled after him and not before, right ?

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On 6/18/2021 at 3:00 PM, direpupy said:

Mya is they only one he had at that time we know the name off but he had more.

False.

On 6/18/2021 at 3:00 PM, direpupy said:

And the Catelyn example is not about Ned or his honor or what he is like, its about how people view lords for which it is a good example. Cat at the time she thought this did not know Ned beyond the few days they spend together after getting married and thus aplied the general conception of lords to him.

The war is not being fought in Catelyn's name. It's a false equivalence. 

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