Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said: How certain are the numbers of the Lannister forces on the Reyne-Tarbeck revolt wiki page? Both sources say "3000 men-at-arms & crossbowmen", not "3000 men-at-arms AND 3000 crossbowmen", for the original host from Casterly Rock. Bowmen of any sort are generally in the minority of infantrymen (& to an even lesser extent among men on horses, which I think Tywin's initial host all may have been, helping to explain the sheer mobility advantages they had against their foes) in Westeros, let alone crossbowmen specifically, particularly for a host that was on the attack & not defending a castle or city. Among ~6500 men total, ~3000 crossbowmen seems quite impractical, tbh: 6 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said: Assuming that Tywin only left the Rock with ~3500 men, he'd possibly be down to ~3000 after the battle against Walderan & his ~500 knights/cavalry (I wonder how many squires counted among/also with them) & the Storming of Tarbeck Hall. Though of course by the time the Red Lion attacked the Lannister encampment, they'd been augmented by the forces of the Marbrands & Presters, along with "a dozen lesser lords"; to have ~3 times the men he did. If Tywin had ~6500 men when he left the Rock, it completely clashes with the ~6000 he's only meant to have against Roger's ~2000. That is unless the rumours that Tywin had Roger outnumbered 5:1 are actually true (though I'm inclined to believe that was just one among many of the pro-Lannister manipulations of the historical record). Yandel states the following: So Tywin Lannister called the banners. He did not seek his lord father's leave, nor even inform him of his intent, but rode forth himself with five hundred knights and three thousand men-at-arms and crossbowmen behind him. House Tarbeck was the first to feel Ser Tywin's wroth. The Lannister host descended so quickly that Lord Walderan's vassals and supporters had no time to gather. Foolishly his lordship rode forth to meet Ser Tywin's host with only his household knights beside him. In a short, brutal battle, the Tarbecks were broken and butchered. Lord Walderan Tarbeck and his sons were beheaded, together with his nephews and cousins, his daughters' husbands, and any man who displayed the seven-pointed blue-and-silver star upon his shield or surcoat to boast of Tarbeck blood. And when the Lannister host resumed its march to Tarbeck Hall, the heads of Lord Walderan and his sons went before them, impaled on spears. At their approach, Lady Ellyn Tarbeck closed her gates and sent forth ravens to Castamere, summoning her brothers. Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but siege engines were readied within a day, and those walls proved little help when one great stone flew over them and brought down the castle's aged keep. Lady Ellyn and her son Tion the Red died in the keep's sudden collapse. All resistance at Tarbeck Hall ended soon after, and the gates were thrown open to the Lannister host. Tywin Lannister then ordered Tarbeck Hall put to the torch. The castle burned for a day and a night, until naught remained but a blackened shell. The Red Lion arrived in time to see the flames. Two thousand men rode with him—all he had been able to gather in the short time available. Tywin Lannister had three times his strength, most accounts agree; some insist the Lannisters outnumbered the Reynes five to one. [...] The unabridged version of The Westerlands phrases it differently, but in doing so, does not contradict Yandel: Determined to erase years of humiliation, he did not seek his lord father’s leave, nor even inform him of his intent, but rode forth himself with five hundred knights and three thousand men-at-arms and crossbowmen behind him. His brothers Kevan and Tygett went with him, one as a knight, one a squire. Lord Marbrand of Ashmark, Lord Prester of Feastfives, and a dozen lesser lords joined him on the march with their own levies, swelling his numbers. [...] The Red Lion arrived in time to see the flames, we are told. Two thousand men rode with him, all he had been able to gather in the short time available to him. Only one in ten was a knight. Given time, Lord Roger could have assembled a much larger host, for House Reyne had many friends in the west, and his own repute as a warrior would surely have drawn many freeriders, hedge knights, and sellswords to his side. In his haste to respond to his sister’s peril, however, his lordship had set forth with less than a quarter of his full strength, and driven them hard over long leagues, only to arrive at Tarbeck Hall hungry, exhausted, and too late. Tywin Lannister had three times his strength, most accounts agree; some insist the Lannisters outnumbered the Reynes five to one. A more prudent commander would surely have fallen back rather than face such odds, but the Red Lion of Castamere had never been prudent. Hoping that surprise might carry the day, Roger Reyne commanded his trumpets to sound the attack, and charged headlong toward Ser Tywin’s camp. [...] Though not a mortal wound, the quarrel went deep enough to draw blood. The Red Lion rode on, swaying in the saddle, only to fall from his horse less than a half a league away. He had to be carried back to Castamere. The Lannister host, swollen to twice its original size by the arrival of the Lords Westerling, Banefort, Plumm, and Stackspear with their levies, arrived at Castamere three days later. Lord Reyne had sent forth ravens to his own friends, allies, and vassals, but few had turned up; the lesson of Tarbeck Hall had not been lost on them. If Tywin, with his three thousand crossbowmen and men-at-arms, and five hundred knights, had three times as many men (as most sources agree upon) as Roger Reyne, who had two thousand, Tywin's total men-count should be somewhere near 6000. Which suggests that the crossbowmen and men-at-arms both numbered near 3000, instead of nubering 3000 together, as otherwise, Tywin would be nowhere near 3 times as many men. This is what Yandel tells us. According to the unabridged version, several other lords joined Tywin with their own men during the march, but the printed version, which supersedes the unabridged version, does not count those men. Instead, Yandel tells us in the printed vesion that Tywin marched, and that he had about three times as many men as Roger's two thousand. A solution would be to write that it is uncertain whether these lords who joined him on the march according to a semi-canon source raised the numbers to ~6000, or whether Tywin marched with 6500 from CR, on account of a difference between the canon and the semi-canon version. 6 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said: 1 I'm rather skeptical that New Ghis, even though it would surely flog Astapor at least in prosperity (particularly per citizen), could field an invasion force anywhere near ~36000 being smaller than even Astapor. It just doesn't have the lands to draw from like the other Ghiscari cities do, which we know they all have extensive hinterlands, indeed being the only plausible explanation for how the hell the Yunkish were able to have so many slave soldiers so fast (being from their hinterland estates that Dany neglected). I think Qarth could, certainly with the inclusion of its fleets, as it could draw from its vassal towns/cities & I'd be very surprised if it didn't control a good deal of northern Great Moraq (if not, even more of the island to that vast forest in the south). And it sits on an even more prosperous naval trade route, anyway. We don't even know if New Ghis bothers to exercise great control over Ghaen - it doesn't look particularly fertile - & we know Ghiscar isn't exactly a foodbowl & population centre. The reading of the Barristan II chapter from TWOW describes the size of a Ghiscari legion as being six thousand strong. Since that is the only description of a size we have, we assume that this is the standard size for the legions. 6 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said: TL;DR: Original Lannister host = ~3500 men, instead of ~6500? The latter is too high, has far too many crossbowmen, & so ~13000 men at Castamere is also too many - ~7000 there seems more like - all (sort of) imo, of course. Oh, wiki New Ghis is OP as fuck, & Slaver's Bay & surrounds needs far more world-building in future ASoIaF/world books. What do you mean by the bolded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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