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Triskele

The Judging Eye II (spoilers)

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Continue. Oh, and I'm taking suggestions for the thread subtitle. I considered "Death does not come swirling down."


Does anyone have any theories on why Scott had Akka and Mimara copulate (other than Scott is a misogynist)?

Also, do we know from former timelines if it's out of the question that Akka is Mimara's father and that was actually incest? Mimara was born shortly before the events of tDTCB right? When the story kicks off weren't we led to believe that Akka had been hanging around Esmi for a few years?

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I thought Mimara was born before Akka entered Esmi's life. Wasn't mentioned somewhere that he had sensed there was some tragedy in Esmi's life, and he had tried to coax her into telling him the story? My memory is all fuzzy right now, but I do believe it was mentioned explicitly that Akka hadn't met Esmi until after the Mimara-incident.

As to why Scott had Akka and Mimara copulate, I have no idea. But I thought it icky when I read it.

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Triskele, if you keep repeating that non-argument about Bakker's mysogyny you might start to believe it. Personally, I'd lay off for a while. :P

Mimara and Akka slept together, as far as I can tell, because 1) they wanted some form of human comfort, and sex/physical intimacy can be very comforting, especially when you're as isolated as Mimara and Akka were, but also because 2) they wanted to punish a lot of people. They both wanted to punish Esmi. They both wanted to punish the world and the Fate that had brought them together. They each wanted to punish the other. And, I think they each wanted to punish themselves.

Unfortunately I don't know the timelines off the top of my head, but I am under the impression that Mimara is not Akka's child. I'm not entirely sure why I think that, though.

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Eef - You may find this intersting...Ro voted you the most attractive woman on the board last night.

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I think so, but in a world of Bakker's making, can you trust your (or others') perceptions? :P

Triskele -- awww, that's sweet. I am, of course, and don't let any of the other board beauty convince you otherwise! :lol:

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Actually, I think that it is one of these things that should have been made clear in the original trilogy, because it is so important for understanding of Esmi's and Akka's relationship. Esmi's refusal to let Akka set her up for life (and thus secure her daughter's childhood as well) always rang so false to me before I was finally told in TJE that Mimara was sold before they ever met.

Now I see that Esmi was depressive and self-punishing from the beginning of their relationship and wouldn't let herself have a happier life after what she did to her daughter. It all makes sense, finally.

OTOH, it goes a bit counter to our initial information that Akka's association with Esmi was of a long standing, that he'd always return to her "over the years".
It seemed to me that it had to be about a dozen years and given that Esmi was still young enough to bear all that brood for Kelhus...yea. Difficult to fit it all chronologically.
Also, it seemed to me a that a very young whore was unlikely to bear a child, because she'd need some savings to tide her over the pregnancy and birth.
So, a little disconnect there, perhaps, but much better than complete psychological disconnect I got from this doomed love in PoN.

As to their having sex together - well, it is Mimara's ingrained reflex to try to use sex to get what she wants, which is quite understandable. And Akka was seeing an Esmi-surrogate in her for a brief moment.

The more interesting question is why Mimara had to be a whore, too. I mean, in Bakkerverse it seems that no woman actually contributes labor, whereas RL women of the period toiled incessantly and their work, while underappreciated, was actually crucial for keeping things running.
Making Mimara a not-primarily-sex slave could have still all the themes of sexploitation, because a young and pretty slave in a big household would have certainly had to endure this, too, while breaking the bizarre focus on professional sex-workers.

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[quote name='Maia']Actually, I think that it is one of these things that should have been made clear in the original trilogy, because it is so important for understanding of Esmi's and Akka's relationship.[/quote]

I thought it was made clear in the first trilogy that Akka is ignorant of Mimara. Don't we learn about her only after Kellhus figures it out?

I really need to re-read these books...

[quote name='Maia']The more interesting question is why Mimara had to be a whore, too.[/quote]

Because she was a pretty girl sold into slavery? Would it really have made sense for her to end up working on an Ainoni plantation or something like that?

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[quote name='Jon AS' post='1723615' date='Mar 18 2009, 07.05']I thought it was made clear in the first trilogy that Akka is ignorant of Mimara.[/quote]

No, he knew about Mimara there, Esmi just told him that she died during the famine. And something gave me a distinct impression that Akka knew Esmi before the famine, too, which turned out to be completely false.
The Mimara chronology is only made clear in TJE - which is a great pity, IMHO, since it easily could have been done in TTT(?) when Kelhus drew the true story out of Esmi and would have explained her complicated relationship with Akka, which is one of the fulcrums of the story.

[quote]Would it really have made sense for her to end up working on an Ainoni plantation or something like that?[/quote]

Well, it was Bakker's choice to make her _that_ pretty. And even so, in RL the number of pretty household slaves dwarfed the number of enslaved whores.

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It did lead to the brilliantly fucked up situation of her dressing like her mom so customers could pay to pretend to fuck the Empress.

Bakker. What an awesome dude. :smoking:

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[quote name='Eefphrodite' post='1723575' date='Mar 18 2009, 06.29']I think so, but in a world of Bakker's making, can you trust your (or others') perceptions? :P

Triskele -- awww, that's sweet. I am, of course, and don't let any of the other board beauty convince you otherwise! :lol:[/quote]

She also said that she had just decided to become a lesbian but she was also telling Limecat how hot he was so I have no idea what to think. :)

Back to the discussion at hand.

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Doesnt Mimara refer to knowing Akka before she was sold? Something along the lines "you were the one who taught me ...". I dont have my books at hand but I think I remember something like that from TJE.

I still wonder whether the ability of the Few is inherited, like a gene. If so, its not improbable that Mimara's father was a sorcerer. Or maybe Esmi's father was? For all we know Möenghus could be Esmi's father - that would at least give an explanation for why she's the only woman that's compatible with Khellus.

Following this line of thought, where does the sorcerer-gene in the Anasurimbor-line come from? Did Sewastha father the son of Celomas that survived the Apocalypse with the Dunyain?

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[quote]Doesnt Mimara refer to knowing Akka before she was sold? Something along the lines "you were the one who taught me ...". I dont have my books at hand but I think I remember something like that from TJE.[/quote]Thats' what she thinks she remembers. Akka is telling her she's wrong. And I think that's probably true; it was before Akka and it's not how Esmi or Akka remember it. And it's almost impossible to imagine that Esmi would fall in love with the father of her worst tragedy.

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and akka would have a reaction to being a father as well, even if he never met a child that 'died in the famine' look at how he thinks of his students like Proyas or Inrau. the fact Akka doesn't seem to have had much reaction seems to indicate he's not the father, though perhaps it was the fact of a whore with a daughter that partially interested him in Esmenet in the first place.

iirc this is how I understood the timeline, just sort of reading between the lines

Esmenet becomes a whore young (12-14)
Esmenet is very successful, perhaps gets a well placed patron, becomes cocky thinks she can get the patron to set her up for life by bearing him a bastard only to be snubbed once she is pregnant
Esmenet has Mimara at around 17-18
Esmenet meets Akka at around 19 Mimara is a toddler, Akka leaves Sumna
The Famine comes when Mimara is 20-21
Esmenet sells Mimara to 'save' both their lives.
Akka returns
cycle of Akka in and out of Sumna over the next few years.
Akka returns to Sumna after a five year absence in TDTCB. Esmenet is around 29, and starting to become an 'old whore'

on the initial read through I had pegged Esment at closer to 38 at the start of TDTCB, after the revelations of a bucketload of babies from TJE, Esmenet would have to be around 28 in the TDTCB to still be giving birth at 45 or so when the twins were born.

perhaps the easiest answer, though, is that Esmenet had Mimara even younger (15-16) as an 'accident' of being a young and naive prostitute at that point.

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[quote name='Kalbear' post='1724438' date='Mar 18 2009, 17.21']Thats' what she thinks she remembers. Akka is telling her she's wrong. And I think that's probably true; it was before Akka and it's not how Esmi or Akka remember it. And it's almost impossible to imagine that Esmi would fall in love with the father of her worst tragedy.[/quote]

Aside from the issue of whether Achamian knew Esmenet at the time of Minara's conception, I would find it difficult to believe that Achamian is Minara's father, just based on his reaction when Minara mentioned to him. He laughed. I doubt that would have been his reaction if he had any basis whatsoever to believe that he was her father.

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I'm inclined to believe that Mimara thinks of Akka as her father because Kellhus planted the suggestion, not because it has any basis in fact.

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[quote name='lockesnow' post='1724505' date='Mar 18 2009, 23.05']on the initial read through I had pegged Esment at closer to 38 at the start of TDTCB, after the revelations of a bucketload of babies from TJE, Esmenet would have to be around 28 in the TDTCB to still be giving birth at 45 or so when the twins were born.[/quote]


IIRC, Esmenet is 30 at the beginning of PoN. It would mean she was well in her forties when the twins were born, but after all it isn't impossible, even in RL.

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[quote name='Bombjack' post='1725348' date='Mar 19 2009, 09.19']I'm inclined to believe that Mimara thinks of Akka as her father because Kellhus planted the suggestion, not because it has any basis in fact.[/quote]

Ah, now that is an interesting idea. I wouldn't bet on it but it's sure possible. I think it's clear that Kellhus was somehow instrumental in Mimara seeking out Akka.

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That is interesting. Mimi's whole relationship with Kellhus is odd. She knows him but isn't devoted to him in the way most people with her level of acquaintance are. Can Kellhus plant false memories though? I don't remember any other instances of him doing that.

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