EHK for Darwin Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 This disgusts me in more ways than one. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032801936.html?hpid=moreheadlines"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...d=moreheadlines[/url] [quote]But inside, prosecutors say, horrors were unfolding: Answering to a leader called Queen Antoinette, they denied a 16-month-old boy food and water because he did not say "Amen" at mealtimes. After he died, they prayed over his body for days, expecting a resurrection, then packed it into a suitcase with mothballs. They left it in a shed in Philadelphia, where it remained for a year before detectives found it last spring. Tomorrow, five of the group's alleged members -- including the boy's mother, Ria Ramkissoon -- are scheduled to be tried in Baltimore on murder charges. Sources and Ramkissoon's mother said Ramkissoon, 22, has agreed to plead guilty to a lesser charge on one condition: The charges against her must be dropped if her son, Javon Thompson, is resurrected. "She wasn't delusional, because she was following a religion," Silverman said, describing the findings of the doctors' psychiatric evaluation.[/quote] I'd say her convictions and reactions were quite delusional. But when compared to the broader spectrum of religion generally, especially when examining beliefs unfamiliar to your own culture, just about all religious beliefs seem delusional. Thankfully most of them are rather innocuous or at least not actively dangerous, but that sadly wasn't the case here. Unfortunately because she had the shield of devout religious belief, particularly one vaguely familiar to the rest of the nation, she gets off of the worst charges. [quote]Under the agreement, Ramkissoon, known within the group as Princess Marie, would plead guilty to child abuse resulting in death and cooperate with prosecutors. The murder charge would be dropped, and prosecutors would recommend probation and treatment.[/quote] Probation and treatment? Are you fricken kidding me? Yeah she was in a member of an extreme cult that practiced all those 'exclude from outsiders, brainwash, etc' things that cults do, but how does that excuse her from murder? Do members of a larger brainwashing cult who believe their religion demands Honor killings or abortion clinic bombings get the same sort of consideration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1738566' date='Mar 30 2009, 17.49']I'd say her convictions and reactions were quite delusional. But when compared to the broader spectrum of religion generally, especially when examining beliefs unfamiliar to your own culture, just about all religious beliefs seem delusional.[/quote]I think that when common sense/laws and religion clash in a criminal case, if an individual choose to follow religion, he should be automatically get the treatment reserved for delusional/insane suspects. [quote]Probation and treatment? Are you fricken kidding me? Yeah she was in a member of an extreme cult that practiced all those 'exclude from outsiders, brainwash, etc' things that cults do, but how does that excuse her from murder? Do members of a larger brainwashing cult who believe their religion demands Honor killings or abortion clinic bombings get the same sort of consideration?[/quote]I agree with your indignation, but on the other hand, what more would a prison sentence accomplish? She would not understand if not unbrainwashed, it would not deter her from doing it again, it would actually isolate her more and favour her falling in with her old friends after her release. Counseling sounds way more appropriate and efficient in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am sorry for the young child who became a victim of his parent's religious convictions. But this is hardly new, nor uncommon. From genital mutilation to stiffling of intellectual development, many religious parents are both convinced of the good these practices are and the righteousness of their actions. That said, I err on the side of allowing people to practice their religion as they see fit. I think this case is tragic, but I don't think it is a crime to follow odd and unreasonable (to the non-members of the group) codes of behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 EHK, For clarity, the child died because the parents denied the child food? If so, that's neglect/abuse pure and simple, regardless of the justification offered. Under the jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Errant Bard' post='1738597' date='Mar 30 2009, 11.07']I think that when common sense/laws and religion clash in a criminal case, if an individual choose to follow religion, he should be automatically get the treatment reserved for delusional/insane suspects.[/quote] Eh? Under this rational Osama Bin Laden gets psychiatric treatment. There are plenty of people perfectly capable of thinking clearly and distinguishing right from wrong who commit horrific acts because they believe their religion demands it. It is still irrational behavior, but not necessarily the sign of insanity. No, sometimes you just lock them up cause there's really nothing to treat. Though I'll agree that's probably not the case here, the woman seemed pretty wacked. [quote]I agree with your indignation, but on the other hand, what more would a prison sentence accomplish? She would not understand if not unbrainwashed, it would not deter her from doing it again, it would actually isolate her more and favour her falling in with her old friends after her release. Counseling sounds way more appropriate and efficient in this case.[/quote] I believe you're under the influence of dangerous Euro sensibilities. :) Deterrence and public safety aren't the only reasons for criminal justice. Punishment comes into play as well. And I don't think wacked out religious delusion should excuse proper punishment for a horrific crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='TerraPrime' post='1738610' date='Mar 30 2009, 11.14']That said, I err on the side of allowing people to practice their religion as they see fit. I think this case is tragic, but I don't think it is a crime to follow odd and unreasonable (to the non-members of the group) codes of behavior.[/quote] Really didn't see you coming down on this side of it. Do you think religiously justified honor killings are also not crimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pita Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If you deny your child food because they didn't say amen, to the point of killing them, you're a monster. If they survive, you're just a child abuser, which comes out to something similar. Plain and simple. She should rot in jail, as well as any of her accomplices. If I murder someone and say that it was because that someone defamed the Spaghetti Monster, I still (EDIT- SHOULD) get the same punishment. This is proof that the world is fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lucan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Religion poisons everything, they say. It's similar to honor killings, stoning for petty crimes. Imagine a world without religion, and twin towers still standing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pita Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Or, a world without religion, where everyone hasn't evolved from living in caves. Don't judge religion because of the actions of a few psychos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lucan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='The Pita Enigma' post='1738725' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.37']Or, a world without religion, where everyone hasn't evolved from living in caves. Don't judge religion because of the actions of a few psychos.[/quote] Not to get into a religious debate, because they are nauseous and pointless, but, I try to judge religion on its own merits. I take offense that without religon we'd be living in caves. It is akin to the argument that without religion, we'd be living lives of unbridled immorality - which, if you think about it, is quite the telling argument from a religious person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHK for Darwin Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='The Pita Enigma' post='1738725' date='Mar 30 2009, 12.37']Or, a world without religion, where everyone hasn't evolved from living in caves. Don't judge religion because of the actions of a few psychos.[/quote] I don't see any meaningful connection between religious belief and the progress of humanity. And while most religious people would never engage in something this horrific, there are a HUGE number of religious peoples who believe things detrimental to society and the further progress of humanity. So while the proportion of outright psychos may be minimal, the numbers who represent negative and repressive influences are legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Gotta love it. Some psycho does something fucked up somewhere and then the old 'religion is absolutely foul and the root of everything wrong with the world' crowd comes out. Yeah, all those charitable soup kitchens are horrible. Those orphanages for otherwise unwanted children are disgusting. Forgiveness is counterproductive and retarded. Charity makes no damn sense and has no justification. All those junkies who got off their smack through religious conviction would have been better served with out it. In short, religion is a purely evil influence on the world, yeah? I know many, many devoutly religious people and not a one would ever stave a 16 month old child to death or believe they could resurrect it. But, surely this case represents a typical outcome of having some kind of religious belief. Go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I'm not sure what the link between social development and religion is, but the very fact that I can't think of a culture that has not developed religious/spiritual beliefs of some kind, causes me to suspect it fills some kind of evolutionary function. Perhaps ideas of immortality and reunification with dead loved one's was at one time necessary for human morale in an all together brutal existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mance Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote]After he died, they prayed over his body for days, expecting a resurrection, then packed it into a suitcase with mothballs. They left it in a shed in Philadelphia, where it remained for a year before detectives found it last spring.[/quote] Eeerrm, hiding the body? Doesn't knowledge of wrongdoing = not insane = guilty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pita Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 GSP, you're my new best friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 yopha meode chabibi! Where u from in Israel. I did my freshman year in University at Hebrew U from 1998-99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Pita Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Kfar Vradim. Ze eize khor batzafon. Back to english mode, murderous psychopathic idiots are murderous psychopathic idiots, no matter where you find them. I remember reading a few years ago about somebody who killed someone for making fun of D&D. That somebody was a schizophrenic with a few other issues, and yet newspaper articles said "D&D Player Stabs Co-Worker with Sword". People are focusing on the religion, and not the actual mental issues, which caused the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turinturambar Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 [quote name='Errant Bard' post='1738597' date='Mar 30 2009, 11.07']I think that when common sense/laws and religion clash in a criminal case, if an individual choose to follow religion, he should be automatically get the treatment reserved for delusional/insane suspects. I agree with your indignation, but on the other hand, what more would a prison sentence accomplish? She would not understand if not unbrainwashed, it would not deter her from doing it again, it would actually isolate her more and favour her falling in with her old friends after her release. Counseling sounds way more appropriate and efficient in this case.[/quote] A prison sentence would keep her off the streets and keep her from doing this shit again. She can receive counseling in prison. Insanity should never be an excuse for anybody to get off of a murder charge. If somebody can take a life, they can certainly do it again. And again. And again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSP Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Bingo. And then there have already been men like Hitler and Stalin that show athiest political movements are just as capable of horrific action as any theocracy. But I suppose to the religion as the root of all evil crowd, there is some way to blame those actions on spiritual belief. IMHO most wars have everything to do with economics, not religion. Religion unfortunately (and often in stark contrast to its fundamentals), is all to often the means to get the masses fired up to die for wealth interests. Where religion is not a viable means of control, some others 'ism' or simple local bigotries can be used just as easily. I just get tired of hearing this idea that in the absence of religion it would somehow magically be all candies and rainbows. When did Atheism become so obnoxiously preachy? I'm some kind of agnostic/nihilist myself but I come from an extremely devout family. While their creed isn't for me (until I get a visit from arch angel Gabriel himself or something to show me enough proof to personally be worth all the sacrifice) I am totally lacking the venom I see from many of the non devout on this board. Maybe its because my family are well adjusted, loving and kind people who's faith is anything but a detriment to their personal strength and character. I can't shake the suspicion that half the anti theists on this board have had some kind of scarring, horrific exposure to religion of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hitler was not an atheist, and Stalin of course, was a trained priest... (albeit a eventually a defrocked one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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