Religious fanatic murders child and gets a slap on the hand

[Slick Mongoose]

[quote]That's a stupid way of summing up a long and complex history. Modern "scientific" anti-Semitism isn't the same thing as medieval Judeophobia. The racial dimension wasn't orignally a part of Christian hatred of the Jews, but for Hitler, it was everything. And besides which, by the turn of the twentieth century, anti-Semitism wasn't a uniquely religious phenomenon.[/quote]

Of course I simplified it, i'm not going into a long detailed history right now. It certainly played a major part.

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738960' date='Mar 30 2009, 21.38']Which is why Hitler invaded Poland? Or why he rounded up the gypsies? The Holocaust wasn't the only thing that Hitler did, ya know.

In any case, let's say that Hitler's whole thing was entirely based around Christian ideals just to take it off the table. What about the 20 million people that Stalin killed? How about the 2 million dead from the Khmer Rouge? How about the ethnic cleansing of the Hutu and Tutsi? How was religion responsible for these things?[/quote]

I'm responding to the claims that a) Hitler was an atheist and b) he wasn't religiously motivated (or he didn't use religion to manipulate people, if you believe him to be lying when he clearly said he [i]was[/i] religiously motivated). Both of which I consider to be wrong. Of course he wasn't religiously motivated in [i]everything[/i] he did, and I don't think I ever suggested he was. And I haven't said anything about any other dictator, either.

[Lord of Oop North]

If religious fanatics feel the need to enforce their barbaric punishments on others, then we should give 'er right back. Let's bring back crucifixion for these monsters. You wanna take out people for violating your religious beliefs? Fine. You better be ready to haul your own cross up the mound, and get really, really thirsty.

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1738952' date='Mar 30 2009, 16.32']Nearly 2000 years of anti-semitism was based on the Jews killing Christ.[/quote]
There really should be a statute of limitations on that one. I mean, honestly. He came back to life! You Christians have a weird definition of murder! Seriously. If the Jews murdered Jesus, then the whole basis of your religion is wrong, dudes. That's just logical.

[Benjen Stark]

FFS people! Power begets evil. Cope.

Some forms of power seem more or less benevolent, but any form of power can be used for evil, whether economic, social, spiritual, or merely first dibs on the latrine. Many people resist the urge to wield any form of power they aquire as a bludgeon and many do not. Others simply misuse power because they don't understand the consequences. (The latrine example happened to be a person whom had not grown up exposed to Western toilets.)

When the lady spends days on end praying over the corpse and seems to fully believe in the eyes of a psychologist that her child will resurrect, I tend to agree that the first and foremost thing she needs is deprogramming. If she regains a semblance of sanity, she will very likely inflict more punishment upon herself than prison ever could. Are there unthinking monsters for whom this would not apply? Sure. But do you personally know the lady in question? Maybe assume that there is at least a chance that the judge and prosecution have a better grasp than somebody reading an article. If they don't, what are we going to do about it anyway?

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738960' date='Mar 30 2009, 14.38']Which is why Hitler invaded Poland? Or why he rounded up the gypsies? The Holocaust wasn't the only thing that Hitler did, ya know.

In any case, let's say that Hitler's whole thing was entirely based around Christian ideals just to take it off the table. What about the 20 million people that Stalin killed? How about the 2 million dead from the Khmer Rouge? How about the ethnic cleansing of the Hutu and Tutsi? [b]How was religion responsible for these things?[/b][/quote]

To be fair, I don't think Slick Mongoose anywhere in this thread has said that religion is responsible for every atrocity ever committed. He simply pointed out that just as much of an argument can be made that Hitler's actions were governed by religion as by atheism.

[Kalbear]

Didn't claim Hitler was an atheist. No one in the thread did.

[quote]Of course I simplified it, i'm not going into a long detailed history right now. It certainly played a major part.[/quote]It didn't. It played a very small role in defining his views and more importantly defining his success. Hitler didn't rise to power because of christianity and judaism. He rose to power because he preyed on poor, angry people with a lot of desire to be powerful again. And the best way to demonstrate power? Pick someone weaker than you and kick them. That's what he did. That it had anything to do with religion was really ancillary.

Slick, this is just distracting from the point I was making at this point. Do you have anything substantive to add? Do you believe that religion was the primary cause of the Holocaust? Do you believe that religious forces are the sole characteristic of organized atrocities? Because that was what I was arguing against.

[quote]To be fair, I don't think Slick Mongoose anywhere in this thread has said that religion is responsible for every atrocity ever committed. He simply pointed out that just as much of an argument can be made that Hitler's actions were governed by religion as by atheism.[/quote]And if you point out one place where I mentioned atheism other than this post, I'll give you a cookie. Since he was responding to me, you'd think that I would have said that somewhere...

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1738974' date='Mar 30 2009, 16.52']Of course I simplified it, i'm not going into a long detailed history right now. It certainly played a major part.[/quote]

You simplified it badly, is the point. 20th century anti-Semitism may have had its origins in religious ideas, but by then many secular elites believed it to be the simple, scientific truth. TerraPrime might write a post in support of that old Baptist teaching, the seperation of church and state, but only a great fool would say he was appealing to religious views when he did so.

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1738987' date='Mar 30 2009, 14.56']Didn't claim Hitler was an atheist. No one in the thread did.[/quote]

GPS said the following:
[quote]Bingo. And then there have already been men like Hitler and Stalin that show athiest political movements are just as capable of horrific action as any theocracy.[/quote]

I believe that's what started this whole exchange.

[TerraPrime]

Re: EHK

I know we differ on this. I think it should be legal for a Jehova's Witness to refuse blood transfusion for his/her child because the act violates his/her religious faith. This will often result in adverse health effects, and probably death, for the child. I'm okay with that. Children are victims of the circumstances of their birth all the time. Freedom to practice one's chosen religion is more important, imo, than the death of a few children. Now, if the practice is more popular and the fatality rate of children is much higher because of religious beliefs, then I might revise my view. As it stands, cases like this are rare and infrequent, when compared to the vast majority of religious households.

Given that, as long as this person can show that saying "Amen" after the prayer for a meal is an integral and inviolate tenet in their faith, then yes, I think she should be acquitted of wrong-doing. In this case, I think it doesn't pass that threshold, because this is an act of punishment gone too far, and not a tenet of their faith. Sorry I was not clear that this particular case does not seem to qualify for my support for people to practice their religion. Then again, I don't know what the tenets of this odd version of Christianity is, so it may very well be that it is an inviolate tenet of the faith. Weirder things have happened in the name of religion and been accepted by the public.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ser Rep.,

[quote]Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that it bothers me that when atrocities are committed that are not specifically done in the name of a religion/faith, people of faith seem quick to link said atrocities with atheism (with Hitler being the perfect example), even though there is absolutely no basis for doing so.[/quote]

To be clear I'm not saying Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were motivated by Atheism to do anything. I'm saying that dispite their non-participation in organized religion or outright hostility toward theism they still commited horrible atrocities. A lack of faith doesn't mean attrocities will not happen.

TP,

[quote]Given that, as long as this person can show that saying "Amen" after the prayer for a meal is an integral and inviolate tenet in their faith, then yes, I think she should be acquitted of wrong-doing. In this case, I think it doesn't pass that threshold, because this is an act of punishment gone too far, and not a tenet of their faith. Sorry I was not clear that this particular case does not seem to qualify for my support for people to practice their religion. Then again, I don't know what the tenets of this odd version of Christianity is, so it may very well be that it is an inviolate tenet of the faith. Weirder things have happened in the name of religion and been accepted by the public.[/quote]

First we're talking about a 16 month old child. The child may not be able to recongize they should say "amen" before eating. Further, while denying a child a meal may be reasonable punishment. Denying the child food an water [i]at all[/i] until they say "Amen" before their meal is not. It is Abuse or Neglect and the parents should be punished for their behaivor.

[Ser Reptitious]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1738995' date='Mar 30 2009, 15.03']Ser Rep.,

To be clear I'm not saying Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were motivated by Atheism to do anything. I'm saying that dispite their non-participation in organized religion or outright hostility toward theism they still commited horrible atrocities. A lack of faith doesn't mean attrocities will not happen.[/quote]

I'm totally with you on that one, Scot.

[Lord Mord]

I think that to the extent the nature of religion compels us to think more lightly of this act on the basis of religious protection, then to that extent religion is more trouble than it's worth. If religious protection can be sufficiently tailored to exclude this foulness without also putting a good many people unduly at risk, then the religious and their apologists have a point.


I think "consciousness of guilt" is slightly bogus as a prosecutorial tool, at least in a case like this. Even if you believe it is right, fearfulness for your own life and livelihood may cause you to conceal your actions. Suppose for a the moment an active prosecution against Christians in particular and you're the only Christian left in a big city, where many if not most of your waking hours are spent with hundreds of eyes on you or trained on some spot near you. You're in the street outside your house, and the Spirit moves you to pray. You might, in such a moment, prefer to pretend to be thinking about something -- "Did I leave my keys in the house?" your expression says -- and, in fact, pray.

You covered up your actions -- you would not pray openly, get down on your knees, hands folded, etc. Are you guilty in any Absolute Sense? Only if you believe that prayer [i]must[/i] be done in a certain way, or if you believe that no one should pray, which both seem to be rather extreme positions.


If you believe that starving your child is on the order of prayer, and if you believe yourself persecuted in your faith, at least insofar as starving your child, though mandated by God, will get you into trouble with the Jackboots, then you might hide what you've done.


I don't say they are like actions, but in the mind of a religious person, where logic may be suspended indefinitely anyway -- why not?

[Maithanet]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1738993' date='Mar 30 2009, 17.03']Given that, as long as this person can show that saying "Amen" after the prayer for a meal is an integral and inviolate tenet in their faith, then yes, I think she should be acquitted of wrong-doing.[/quote]

Did anyone else think this element of the story was strange? Was the child unable to speak or something? When I read EHKs post, I wondered why the kid didn't just say Amen? Simple stubbornness very rarely wins out against the desire to eat.

This isn't blaming the victim, what happened is obviously awful. I just felt the story was incomplete without some sort of detail on how "not saying Amen" --> Death.

[The Khaleesi]

Back to the case in point. Was the woman mad, and being supported up in her delusions by the religious group she belonged to?
Or was she sane, but her ideas/values/ etc had become totally out of whack with society's because of the group?


Here are some more examples of religious conviction leading to bad results for young people. Are the parents/caregivers or religious people involved mad? Are they doing what they think is right? Where do we draw the line?

<<A girl whose pastor allegedly spanked her with a piece of molding because he thought she was lying about being sexually abused testified for two hours today at the minister's trial.>>
[url="http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/03/daryl-bujak-pastor-minister-spanking-sexual-abuse.html"]http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/03...xual-abuse.html[/url]

<<When Elif's father told her she had to kill herself in order to spare him from a prison sentence for her murder, she considered it long and hard. "I loved my father so much, I was ready to commit suicide for him even though I hadn't done anything wrong," the 18-year-old said. "But I just couldn't go through with it. I love life too much.">>
[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/women-told-you-have-dishonoured-your-family-please-kill-yourself-1655373.html"]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/eu...lf-1655373.html[/url]

<<A Hindu nationalist group has warned it plans to target British women drinking alcohol in the beach bars of Goa, India's popular tropical tourist resort.
The Sri Ram Sena group's threat comes after a string of attacks couples courting in public and young women drinking in pubs.>>
[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/5023199/Hindu-militants-target-British-women-drinking-in-Goa-bars.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...n-Goa-bars.html[/url]

<<TORONTO — A Canadian man has been charged with murdering his own daughter, and her friends say the two clashed over her refusal to wear a Muslim head scarf. Police have not commented on a motive.>>
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316550,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316550,00.html[/url]

<<A circumcision ritual practiced by some Orthodox Jews has alarmed city health officials, who say it may have led to three cases of herpes - one of them fatal - in infants. But after months of meetings with Orthodox leaders, city officials have been unable to persuade them to abandon the practice.>>
[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html"]http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html[/url]

<<A 22-year-old mother died just hours after giving birth to twins because doctors were forbidden from giving her a blood transfusion as a Jehovah's Witness.
Emma Gough's family, including her Jehovah's Witness husband, Anthony, 24, refused to overrule her wishes and she died after losing blood.>>
[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/05/health.religion"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/05/health.religion[/url]

[Kalbear]

[quote]Did anyone else think this element of the story was strange? Was the child unable to speak or something? When I read EHKs post, I wondered why the kid didn't just say Amen? Simple stubbornness very rarely wins out against the desire to eat.[/quote]He was 16 months old.

[snake]

This is similar to the case in Manitoba involving Vince Li. He attacked, killed, beheaded and ate some of Timothy McLean. He was deemed insane and therefore not responsible for what he had done. He also stated that God told him to do it because McLean was evil. He was found to be schizophrenic and that he had suffered a major psychotic episode.

[url="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html"]Story.[/url]

As far as this case goes I think the woman should recieve psychiatric help in a medical facility (not a prison) and should not be allowed out until the doctors are certain that she would never do something like this again.

[Maithanet]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1739022' date='Mar 30 2009, 17.27']He was 16 months old.[/quote]

That does explain it. I somehow read 16 years old, and thought he was being very stubborn.

[Swordfish]

[quote name='snake' post='1739023' date='Mar 30 2009, 13.28']This is similar to the case in Manitoba involving Vince Li. He attacked, killed, beheaded and ate some of Timothy McLean. He was deemed insane and therefore not responsible for what he had done. He also stated that God told him to do it because McLean was evil. He was found to be schizophrenic and that he had suffered a major psychotic episode.

[url="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html"]Story.[/url]

As far as this case goes I think the woman should recieve psychiatric help in a medical facility (not a prison) and should not be allowed out until the doctors are certain that she would never do something like this again.[/quote]


The certainty you look for here simply does not exist.

[snake]

[quote name='Swordfish' post='1739099' date='Mar 30 2009, 18.51']The certainty you look for here simply does not exist.[/quote]

Why do you say that?

[Swordfish]

[quote name='snake' post='1739116' date='Mar 30 2009, 15.09']Why do you say that?[/quote]


because it's true.

[snake]

If she has a mental illness and it can be successfully treated then she should be allowed to reintegrate into society.

IF she has a mental illness that is.

My Uncle was almost killed by his first cousin who was suffering from schizophrenia. The man spent one year in a treatment facility and has been living home ever since and has lived a normal life thus far.